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Grains and sugars precipitate neuroinflammation?

Discussion in 'Neurological/Neuro-sensory' started by JaimeS, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    This sucks, but I've been on a zero grain diet for the past few weeks, along with no added sugars (and low intake of foods that are naturally high-sugar). On an average day, I take in between 50 - 70-g carbs and 25-g sugar. When I do so, all the pain / congestion at the base of my skull evaporates. The moment I consume a grain -- ANY grain -- it flares right back. I ate potatoes last night (small quantitity) and it felt all right, so it's not carbs necessarily. I figured I was all right and had a handful of organic corn chips and the pain came right on back.

    Maybe there are simply too many hypotheses right now, but has anyone experienced this? I saw something on the threads about gluatamate, but I don't think other high glutamate foods bother me. For example, I eat cashews like they're going out of style (I eat lots of nuts now that I don't eat carbs, as I'm sure you can imagine.)

    There is a paper here on wheat's inflammatory effects. I have no doubt thatmy body is just that sensitive to inflammation, but... can this really be the case for all grains?

    Any theories? Anyone else notice upticks in inflammation with ANY grains?

    On the bright side, I'm creating a prodigious number of no-carb, low-sugar recipes that still taste nice! (There's a pony in here somewhere...)

    -J
     
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  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Yes to inflammation with any grains and starches for a time.

    I realized it when trying to increase resistant starch a couple of years ago.

    My gut would balloon, but there was body wide inflammation - nose , throat, mouth, joints, muscles, so on.

    Microbes like the carbs. at least as much as we do, and they will grab and not share if there are too many.

    Grains are really carb. dense. I reacted to corn especially.

    I've taken many rounds of various antibiotics this past year, after avoiding them most of my life. I still have plenty of gut microbes, don't know the quantity and type, but, I can now eat some grains without reactions. ( I'm not recommending abx.)

    The microbes utilize the carb. and produce metabolites that may be inflammatory: lactic acid, biogenic amines, histamines, and, nitric oxide.
     
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  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I have a hard time excluding carbs from the diet but I limit gluten grains to a minimum, and for the rest I use rice or millet and quinoa which technically is not even a grain.

    Have you tried it? It tastes good, has pretty high content of magnesium, balanced amino acids and doesn't shoot your glycemic index glycemia through the roof like white flour does.

    Millet or buckwheat could also be good alternatives to keep some carbs in the diet without, possibly, the side effects of bread, pasta and the like.

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
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  4. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    @PeterPositive ,

    That's pretty much what I was doing before. I was totally GF before this, but eating stuff made of millet and quinoa, buckwheat and sorghum. GF oats.

    Some more background: I was shocked to discover that I'm only mildly gluten wheat intolerant, according to a sensitivities panel (for what that's worth). I really had difficulty with bread products -- like, gut spasms, profound neuro symptoms, true awfulness. I explained my intense reaction to wheat when I noted I was far MORE intolerant to bread yeasts (so that must be it, right?) But over time I noticed I felt a lot better when I ate fewer carbs in general, until it became clear that when I avoided sugar and carbs, my encephalitic-type pain went away.

    So what I've been avoiding now is all carbs, because I figured it was an infective response: my wee beasties really liking sugars (as @Crux postulates above).

    But then I ate potatoes -- not a grain -- and didn't experience neuroinflammation at all.

    I'm still testing. Tomorrow maybe I'll try quinoa and see if I get the same inflammatory response. Suppose it's the grass family? Like... ALL the grass family.... :confused:

    That would include a LOT.

    -J
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    The only grains I tolerate are white or parboiled rice, corn (mostly avoid it but it doesn't cause me leaky gut) and millet.
    Legumes I tolerate fine except for soy which makes me feel just like eating wheat (slightly milder).
    Potatoes with resistant starch are also intolerable, but just fine if eating up to 12h after cooking
    Bananas also cause me leaky gut.

    All of the above have lectins in common.

    I haven't been eating seeds and nuts due to arginine, but I soak them to lessen lectins/phytates.

    I tried to very hard to go starch-free, but it was a nightmare (non-stop brain fog for months). My microbiome needs something!
    You mean your glycemia (blood sugar levels). The food has glycemic index ;) Sorry for being such a snob, but I have been reading a lot about it lately.:D
     
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Potatoes may be less likely to 'feed the beasties' when they're recently cooked, before resistant starch is formed.
     
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  7. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    I agree, @Crux ... that's a possibility. Maybe it's because I only tend to eat potatoes hot, whereas the others I eat once they're cooled? That's certainly an outside-the-box way of thinking about the issue. Interesting.
     
  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    We learned a lot during the 'Resistant Starch' thread.

    I learned I had sibo and a litany of infections.

    I didn't realize how much I loved potatoes until having to give em up for a time. Now, it's most days, some form, even day old potato salad. (We reduce bone broth and make a delicious sauce for mashed potatoes.)

    As for grains, even some healthies have trouble with big servings of them. Most often, I read about their bloating / gas issues.

    Do you get neuro symptoms from having any other foods?
     
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  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    from what ican tell i seem 2 be ok with potatoes but get lethargic etc with breads, so maybe its more about hte grains 4 me to. i get quite q few different symptoms flaring including immflamtion symptoms when i breach my lowcarb diet including more shoulder pain with torn tendon.
     
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  10. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    @JaimeS have you looked at the glycemic index AND the glycemic load in order to decide which carb to choose? certain carbs have the same glycemic index, but a lower glycemic load, which means that the glucose is processed by the body more slowly. This can make a big difference in how it makes you feel, is my experience.
     
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  11. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    That's an interesting paper. I'll be taking that one back to the parents.

    We discovered years ago that my father became a very nice person if we kept him away from any form of wheat. No celiac, no 'allergies', no other symptoms - just grumpyitis.
     
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  12. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I feel sick plus low mood, after straying off no-grain diet with corn or wheat. Quinoa and small amount of oats okay for me.

    Rice keeps me awake half the night. Tried to find a possible cause for that but got no leads. Arsenic?
     
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  13. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    I feel best first thing in the morning before I attempt to digest anything, but maybe we can use this to find clues.

    Here are foods that make me feel great: full-fat coconut milk, salmon, coffee, dark leafy greens, Japanese food (minus the white rice, e.g. -- things that contain seaweeds and tofu). My favorite thing in the whole wide world health-wise to eat would be a 'Buddha bowl': a small amount of whole grain (before I stopped them) covered with lots of leafy greens, a few nuts, poached salmon, and homemade ginger dressing, maybe some carrots and tomatoes.

    Things I seem to tolerate just fine: cashews, nuts of various kinds (except almonds); cocoa and cacao; other lean meats, other fish; carrots, parsnips, tomatoes, coconut oil, olive oil (so long as it is used to cook and is not plain and old, e.g. in salad dressing), egg yolks, cabbage (cooked), french-fried potatoes (as per yesterday's experiment!)

    Things that I have some trouble with: high animal fat content

    Things that set up neuroinflammation: sugars (of any type), cornmeal, wheat, white rice, anything fermented or cultured (except miso... for some reason!), egg whites, almonds, DAIRY (gives an almost anaphylactic-type reaction where I can't breathe), fungi including mushrooms and bread yeast

    @Effi -- but potatoes are high glycemic and high glycemic load, right?

    @helen1 -- rice keeps you awake.

    Boy, our bodies sure are, uh, unique, right? :lol:

    -J
     
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  14. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    in comparison to grains, potatoes are not that high glycemic. I didn't check the difference for corn vs potatoes, but structure wise, corn is closer to grain than a potato. Empirically, I know that carbs from (root) vegetables work better for me than any grain or grain-like seeds (quinoa, buckwheat, etc). No idea why, I guess how it's processed by the body? That to me seems to be the reason why I tolerate potatoes better than grains. The key to this all is portion size though, small amounts of most of the safe(ish) carbs are ok for me on most days.

    btw, reading what you wrote about which foods you tolerate, it's like reading my own food diary! :p
     
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  15. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    So, comparison time:

    (Index first, load second)

    Brown rice 79 222
    Basmati Rice 83 271

    White Rice 91 283

    Corn 78 171
    Baked potato 121 246
    French Fries 107 219
    Honey (1t. but still) 78 16!!!

    What this comes down to is that I'm finding no correlation. I don't tolerate anything as sweet as honey at all anymore, even though I don't get neuro symptoms from it. Corn definitely is too much (sugar? grain? Inflammatory chemicals? I've got no idea), but potatoes, which have a higher glycemic load don't ping me the same way.

    Interestingly, before I got sick, I favored grains with a lower glycemic load.

    The list I was looking at was mostly for products, and since no one eats wheat by the handful, some comparisons were hard to make. But here is 'Cream of Wheat''s glycemic index and load:

    Cream of wheat 94 154

    So noticeably lower than that potato still, at in terms of both index and load. I had french fries last night, to be specific. :D

    While I don't think this necessarily means that blood sugar isn't related, I'm not sure I can link blood sugar to my symptoms using the values here.

    Suppose different pesticides are used on aboveground vs root veggies?

    -J
     
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  16. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    I haven't read this whole thread, but I plan to later. I think all the gluten grains do cause neuro-inflammation which you probably already said.

    I think the other grains are bad because of cross-contamination, GMOs, pesticides, and mostly from mold and things that grow well in grains.

    I don't know any stats or links off hand, but when they test different grains, I believe they nearly always find unhealthy mold and stuff. By unhealthy, I mean types that are known to cause symptoms in humans.

    While organic crops don't use normal chemical pesticides, they still use other stuff that's probably quite unhealthy for us. There are known carcinogens, etc. It's basically a different form of pesticides that they can call "natural".

    Regarding GMOs, even though corn is marked as organic non-GMO, they usually are contaminated from pollen from GMO corn that is a mile away. Other grains may be okay, but corn is very prone to that. I think it can be more than a mile too.

    (Corn also acts similarly to gluten grains as far as destroying the gut. Soy, peanuts, and casein too.)
     
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  17. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    I had to look up egg whites...they are an allergen, but , apparently they contain enzyme inhibitors, etc. what a pain, no souffle for you.:depressed: http://www.thepaleomom.com/2012/06/whys-behind-autoimmune-protocol-eggs.html

    Fermented stuff, still too much lactic acid ? (Perhaps too many lactic acid producing,LAB bacteria present.)

    Dairy causing histamine reaction. Excess histamine producing bacteria? There are many genera of histamine producing bacteria, not always commensal either.

    Yeah, molds and yeasts, inflammatory, that old candida thing.

    I've had that head pain in the same location, back of the head. I've called it migraine, but technically it's occipital neuralgia.

    Migraines are associated with elevated nitric oxide, produced by the body (macrophages), to fight infections.
    Too much nitric oxide can be neurotoxic .
     
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  18. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I found out l have SIBO and leaky gut and am doing the autoimmune paleo which is no grains for the reason given above, no nuts or seeds, no chocolate, sob! no nightshade no fruit apart from berries and no dairy. This should only be for a period of a few months but l was reading that Lyme causes leaky gut so maybe it will take longer. Lots of symptoms have eased.
     
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  19. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    Almonds are usually treated with "propylene oxide, aka PPO, which is considered a possible carcinogen" as well as having a dose of radiation. But organic almonds are not.
     
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  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I get increased neurological issues from wheat. Not all sources of wheat affect me equally, which has me questioning what it is about the wheat that does this. It might even not be wheat but herbicides like glyphosate. Or not.

    I never found a correlation with blood sugar, though I no longer check it. I can eat a big carb load and have no adverse response, and a small amount of wheat and have a major response. I do not think macronutrients are the issue. I think its more subtle than that.

    I suspect I also respond to soy in a bad way, but with much less severity than wheat.
     

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