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Good energy versus bad energy

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by xchocoholic, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    After spending a lifetime supporting my energy level with caffeine, sugar, etc I'm not sure what it feels like not to be jacked up on something. I could very well have a "normal" energy level but because I'm not feeling hyper, I would "think" I'm tired. Does this make sense ?

    I've tried a variety of supplements (metagenics vessell care, sublingual mb12, p5p, and now b6) that have increased my energy but all of them led to feeling over energized, jacked up, hyper, etc. eventually. Granted after all these years without energy I was having a good time ..

    But I don't understand why these work great for awhile and
    then I get to where I'm constantly in hyper / "gotta go" mode. It's only when I can't sleep anymore that I realize I need to get off that supplement. Each time eliminating the supplement stops the hyper feeling and the insomnia.

    This time it was b6. I didn't feel any energy improvements at first so I'm assuming my body is now converting b6 to p5p because this is how I felt from p5p and coming off the b6 stopped the hyper feeling.

    Eta - it could've been the combo of juicing, eating more fruit and taking b6 that made me feel hyper. I'm off the b6 for now but will add it back in at a lower dose to check results. I'm told that I need b6 for my oxalate problem.

    Also when I get into these energy bursts, I can keep going physically but my brain can't possibly keep up. I'm guessing it's because my oi stops the blood from getting to my brain.

    Ideas ? I know many of us do this. Are we just too sensitive to certain supplements ?
  2. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    I've never used anything much that causes extra energy, except for the odd bit of caffeine and sugar. As far as I know, false energy is always bad energy for ME, meaning that you will crash later. I will use caffeine or sugar occasionally for emergencies, for instance I keep a bar of liquorice in my handbag for use if I suddenly crash when I'm out and will otherwise be unable to get home. To me, good energy comes from being well rested, relaxed, hydrated and fed.
    Ocean likes this.
  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi Calathea,

    Have you tried MB12 or P5P ? both of these make me energized but the energy comes back to haunt me after a few weeks or months in the form of insomnia. My reaction, insomnia, could just be that once my body has enough of these, it tells me to quit taking them. So I could just be overthinking this.

    The energy I get from caffeine is mostly a jittery feeling. The energy from MB12 and P5P feels completely natural. I'm assuming it's like I felt prior to getting ME/CFS. I never thought about energy before getting sick. I'm very intolerant of caffeine tho. It affects my adrenals and heart for at least 24 hours.

    I'm getting healthy energy from juicing and eating fruits throughout the day now but it's not the same as when I was taking the B6 too. I'm missing the hyper feeling, I guess ? ?

    tc ... x
  4. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    P5P - no discernible change in energy. I was taking it for RSI, anyway. I have no idea whether it made the RSI clear up sooner than it would have otherwise.

    MB12 - I tried this at a bad time, while I was recovering from gabapentin withdrawal. The gabapentin withdrawal caused substantial insomnia, so I have no idea whether the MB12 would do that to me or not. I'm planning to give it another try once I've completely recovered from both the gabapentin fiasco and the gallbladder op.

    With regard to juicing - that's probably healthy energy, but beware of sugar highs!
  5. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Is RSI repetive strain injury ? That's all i could find when I googled it. I started out with 50 mg p5p from solgar but had to cut it into 1/4s after awhile and then had to eliminate it totally to get some sleep. Always within a couple of days of eliminating these, I'm back to sleeping like I was. kow ...

    sorry to hear about your gabapentin withdrawals. I withdrew myself from klonopin 5 years ago so I have an idea how this went. I used valerian root tea, horribe stuff, bu it worked.

    fwiw .. I had my gallbladder removed about 6 years ago and I regret it. It turned out that I'm a celiac and gallbladder problems are common in celiacs. Eliminating gluten should've saved my gallbladder. In fact, I have a freind who's doctor ordered a celiac panel on her prior to her gallbladder surgery cause he knew about the connection. Sure enough, she was a celiac and didn't require surgery. Has your doc looked at this ? It might save you some pain ...

    I'm great on the energy I get from juicing because I only use one apple for the whole container. Its all the fruit I'm eating that has me a wee bit concerned ... tc. x
  6. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    I don't think Coeliac being misdiagnosed as gallbladder is all that common, but yes, I've been tested for it and come back negative. I also tried going gluten-free for a year just to check. I'm confused as to how they could be muddled up, anyway. I got typical gallbladder attacks: extreme upper right quadrant pain, often with chills and nausea, starting a few hours after eating fatty foods and lasting for a few hours. Whether or not I'd eaten gluten had nothing to do with it. What did you experience? And did you get problems resulting from removing your gallbladder, then?
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Actually, celiac disease is misdiagnosed quite a bit. Biopsies can be off, etc. The NIH even has on their celiac website that they know it is often over looked or misdiagnosed. They even say that CFS can be one of it's misdiagnosises. It shocked me when I read that in 2006. I missed out on a lot of years due to my misdiagnosis.

    I didn't find out I was a celiac until 2005 and I got sick with cfs in 1990. ALTHOUGH ... I may have just been gluten intolerant until 2005 too. Meaning, I didn't have damaged villi, just "probable" brain damage (ataxia) from gluten. My ataxia went away after 16 1/2 years, one year after eliminating gluten and some other foods.

    I have the DQ2 gene celiac gene so no telling how long the gluten damage has been going on. I didn't even get tested for celiac until I'd been off gluten for 17 months. I've really had some crappy doctors ...

    At the time I "think" I finally became a celiac, in June 2005, I couldn't eat anything without it going right through me. After eliminating gluten, dairy, etc, my gut felt like i was eating glass everytime I ate for at least 6 months. I was eating only bland well cooked foods at that time.

    When I retested gluten just to see what would happen, it went right through me again. I couldn't get to the bathroom quick enough if you know what I mean ... lol ...

    My gall bladder pains were the same as yours. My doc gave me a green liquid medicine (can't think of the name) to stop the spasms. It worked great but it was an opiod that knocked me out too.

    My gallbladder tests showed that it was barely functioning. I think it was at 11% at the time. They found sludge but no stones.

    I was really sick when all this was happening but from what I remember the gallbladder surgery wasn't what I needed so I didn't feel any better from it. I was in a lot of pain for a long time afterwards too. But again, I was eating gluten still.

    I've been told that the reason I have so much trouble digesting fat, it comes back up on me, is that my gallbladder isn't there to do it's job. I can't take coconut oil becuase of this and will have trouble if I eat too much fat at all ...

    gotta rest ...

    tc. x
  8. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    Did the problems with digesting fat get worse after your gallbladder was removed, or was it more that it made no difference and was thus unnecessary? How's your liver? It's the liver that is mainly responsible for digesting fats, after all. The gallbladder is only meant to be necessary for eating unusually large amounts of fat, a throwback from when humans led a feast-or-famine existence.

    I did have a gallbladder chock full of stones. I've a feeling the iffy ones, where they're not quite sure but operate anyway and then find it didn't help, tend to be when the symptoms are the same but there aren't any stones showing up on x-ray.

    I'm still having problems with abdominal pain after eating, which didn't happen that often before the op. The doctors all say that this is normal, as your intestines are shoved about a lot during the surgery and it takes them a while to heal. I do wish it would hurry up and stop, though.
  9. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Worse after surgery. My liver seems to be ok now. My enzymes are good. I can eat most anything as long as it's Paleo and not overly fatty.

    I've read that while it's the liver's job to process fats, our gall bladders are needed for this too. I'm not sure sure of the details tho because since my gallbladder was already gone I wasn't interested enough to remember it. I've only been researching health since 2005 so my education has been fast and furious. lol ...

    I didn't have pain everytime I ate until after the surgery too. I hope you heal faster than I did. I can't remember how long after that surgery that my celiac disease became apparent.

    tc ... x
  10. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    Yes, but I think it's more likely they help compensate for other problems. I know that caffeine does for me, in small amounts.

    Many meds/supplements give me horrible insomnia the first night, and it only worsens. I think I am very sensitive because of Cytochrome P450 mutations and IIRC we can have stronger effects if our liver is not performing well and needs detox. As well as other organs.

    Yeah watch the amount of fruit sugar & carbs that get converted into sugars.
  11. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi s,

    I really thought caffeine was helping me until I weaned myself off of it. Then when I tried it again I could feel how it was making my heart or adrenals race for at least 24 hours afterwards. I only used small amounts but had a big reaction. I'm overly sensitive to a lot of chemicals tho so I should've suspected this.

    When I first started trying to heal myself via a healthy diet in 2005, all meds and supplements bothered me too. Most made me feel totally toxic. After about two years tho this stopped and I could take a few supplements and drugs. My liver seems better in this way.

    I'm not sure if our genes are actually as important as some say. The young doctor on the doctors was saying this the other day. Imho, The research into genetics is too new to draw conclusions.

    For example, I've been watching how the number of genes thought to be associated with celiac disease have increased in the last few years. I
    was only tested for the dq2 and dq8 and I have the dq2 gene. But based on my reaction to gluten for 50 years, I don't think it was triggered until 2005.

    I'm not sure what to make of the energy I get from eating more fruit. I can't imagine a paleo ever regulating his/her fruit intake tho. I've been doing this for a month and I haven't put on weight.

    It's interesting because I was low carb for 3 years and NEVER had this much energy. I'm guessing my body couldn't get used to surviving off low carbs even tho they say we will. Maybe this is how my liver / pancreas are damaged tho.

    I was also diagnosed as hyperinsulinemic via gtt + insulin but I'm not getting that insulin rush feeling anymore from eating fruit. I was only eating one piece of fruit spread out during day because of this feeling. Now I'm eating two tangerines, or a fruit smoothie, etc .. Duh .. It could be that I just trained my body not to handle fruit by going low carb ..

    Tc . X
  12. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Um, just to be clear .. I'm not demonizing anything we do to gain energy. I'd drink coffee or eat chocolate or take gurana in a heartbeat if I was in a position where I needed to keep going and these were my only options.

    I'm just looking at this to see what pwcs can do that actually increases our energy without causing consequences. Afterall, we're all tired and wanting more energy. It's the consequences we can do without.

    Tc .. X
  13. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    I'm betting you're getting nervous energy out of these supplements -- NOT -- normal energy. Normal energy is calm and controlled. It will facilitate relaxation in the body as opposed to making your hyper / wired. Insomnia is certainly and indicator of excess nervous energy.
  14. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    thanks .. this makes sense to me. Calm and controlled energy is a whole new concept for me. I went from working full time and raising a 2 year old and drinking coffee, etc in order to keep up the pace ... to getting knocked off my feet with ME/CFS.

    I'm curious as to how our bodies can create energy from excitotoxins. I suppose it's our adrenal glands freaking out over the toxin and thus providing us with excess adrenaline and glucose. This is how caffeine works, right ? That would explain how I kept up with my DD all those years after getting ME/CFS too. Kids, lol ...

    I just need to find an energy source that doesn't cause problems later. I "think", um hope, it's going to be from juicing and eating more fruits. I'm assuming that I wasn't absorbing nutrients from my foods and that's why juicing makes me feel better.

    I was diagnosed as a celiac back in 2007 but I don't think I'm going to heal. As indicated by my stool tests over the last 3 years, I over react to minute amounts of gluten. And gluten for me equals dead villi, insomnia, myoclonus and probably ataxia (aka brain damage) ... yikes ...

    thanks again ... x
  15. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    That's the holy grail for us CFS/MEers. Finding a way to swap from nervous energy to healthy normal energy. You'll need to find a way to fix mitochondrial failure and balance neurotransmitters (less excitatory and more inhibitory -- ie switch from sympathetic to parasympathetic).

    Sometimes this feels impossible to achieve.
  16. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting this. I didn't realize what this was. Sorry if I didn't sound appreciative before. I'm planning on googling this more when I'm rested. tc ... x
  17. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks. I had to google this one too. And now I forgot what it said ... lol ...

    Basically tho, I was thinking that by eliminating as many excitotoxins as possible, we can get this under control. I know I feel sooo much calmer now without gluten or caffeine or HFCS, etc ... I was really depending on these for energy. Theanine calmed me if I'd gotten into one of these by mistake or "stupidity" .. :eek:

    Having an upregulated immune system isn't going to help tho. If I come within 10 feet of gluten, my body freaks out ... lol ...

    And the problem I see for those with OI is that our adrenals kick in as soon as we're up because our upper bodies are low on blood. This is going to keep our adrenals taxed.

    Holy Grail indeed ... lol ... tc ... x
  18. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    It's not just about excitotoxins. Even the neurotransmitters your body produces itself are either excitatory or inhibitory. An imbalance in the synthesis in any of these can also be devestating. For instance.

    Imbalance between serotonin and dopamine synthesis and break down.
    Imbalance between glutamate and gaba synthesis and break down.
  19. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I'm not sure I'm following this. Are you talking about how emotions or stress affect our bodies ?
    I'm only trying to control what I know I can and nothing else.

    Meaning, I've been focused on getting the right nutrients from my diet and avoiding toxins with the idea that
    proper nutrients will allow my body to heal and function properly. Now that I feel less sick I'm less stressed.

    Don't all neurotransmitters or chemicals in our bodies originate from nutrients ?

    Granted we can't completely avoid stress but a healthy body and mind deal with it better.

    Tc .. X
  20. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I think some of the confusion is because "excitatory" is often equated with "energy". Stimulants like caffeine are excitatory, but are not producing energy. They might cause your body to react in a way that feels energetic, until the effect wears off and you end feeling wiped out. Some foods might be both excitatory and energy-producing.

    An example of a problem I have with over-stimulatory influences is from excess glutamate levels. Glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter, and high levels of it were causing my "wired but tired" issues and sleeping difficulties. GABA and glutamate should balance each other out, but my GABA levels were normal while my glutamate levels were extremely high. This could be why certain foods had a very nasty effect on me before I started avoiding sources free glutamate.

    Because my glycine (another neurotransmitter) levels were also extremely high, supplementing cysteine to bring them down made sense. Cysteine can combine with glutamate and glycine to create glutathione, thereby using up glutamate and lowering levels of it. So now the wired but tired sensation and sleeping issues are gone for me, and I can think clearly and calmly.

    I don't think it has much to do with stress or emotions. Just a physical problem producing enough cysteine (a common genetic issue), which can perpetuate even higher glutamate levels and lower cysteine levels. A beneficial side effect of dealing with it this way is that I get more glutathione. Whereas drugs that raise GABA to oppose the high glutamate (instead of just lowering glutamate), can cause side effects and be problematic to stop taking.

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