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Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Martial, Feb 3, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Martial,
    Below is the list of typical potassium and folate deficiency symptoms that various people have at startup irrelevant of dose below the "enough" range which appears to vary between 1600 and 30,000 MCG dependent upon how much folic acid, folinic acid, veggie folates they have. No amount of methylfolate can overcome the methyltrap folate deficiency symptoms caused by whey, NAC or glutathione.

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Ventura, CA

    I would imagine that it is a result of folate needing b12 to function and work in cellular function, the same as b12 is dependent on folate.. If one is deficient then the absortion of the other will always be worse, likewise if you mega dose one without having adequate supply of the other this could cause issues too.. perhaps that is the result of the paradox deficiency.. I guess to me it doesn't seem too paradoxical though one is always dependent on the other. There always being dysregulation when something in the system is not optimal.

    @Freddd thanks for the info again, I already recorded tons of conversations we have had in the past! Actually I have been spreading your protocol out around other forums and places as well, it seems people are really attuned to it and are testing it out themselves.. I always warned of folate deficiency and potassium issues as well!

    As someone mentioned in another thread I am curious.. Are issues with potassium deficiency specific to methylation with ME/CFS? Or is it just something that happens regardless of the persons condition and health? I do not have M.E. and I am not sure if I ever had potassium deficiency as a result of the protocol, though I always made sure to up my intake regardless... It is also hard to tell as my condition of lyme disease closely mimics symptoms of all deficiencies including b12, folate, and potassium..
  3. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    Haha yeah I know! I talk to people all the time at the gym and mention t-nation and they have no idea what it is. It's an awesome site if you're into lifting though. Good to see another person here that's into training like me.

    I'm just thankful that despite feeling like crap all the time, I still manage to get through my workouts because without those, I'd be 10x more miserable.

    I increased my B12 today and did notice a little bit of a difference, so maybe it's working. I have learned to not get ahead of myself though because usually what happens is if I have a good day, it's always followed by a really bad day. Crossin my fingers that tomorrow will be good too.

    I'm not doing carnitine yet, but I am doing AdB12. Today I did 8,000 mcg of MeB12 and 2,000 mcg of AdB12. I was able to drop my folate today down to only 6 pills, so 4,800 mcg which is much more practical I think.

    Alright I just ordered the Enzymatic B12 and the Source Naturals AdB12 so will start with those when they get here. Seems like the Seeking Health stuff may have worked though based on the slight improvement so far today. Maybe this could end up being one of your 5 star brands as well.

    Thanks for the tips guys.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Are issues with potassium deficiency specific to methylation with ME/CFS? Or is it just something that happens regardless of the persons condition and health? I do not have M.E. and I am not sure if I ever had potassium deficiency as a result of the protocol, though I always made sure to up my intake regardless... It is also hard to tell as my condition of lyme disease closely mimics symptoms of all deficiencies including b12, folate, and potassium

    Hi Martial,

    I'll tell you how it appears to be to me. The apparent "trigger" for my FMS appears to be traumatic injury, the car wreck. Quite a few people appear to have traumatic injury as a trigger to FMS. My CFS appeared to have a sudden onset with what looks like a viral trigger. My favorite candidate for that is a coxsackie or echo virus, often called non-paralytic polio and counted in polio epidemics of past decades. You know, I also had mono. I've had numerous tick bites in the east and a few in the west. I had several viral infections that affected so many people that they delayed school openings across the country some years and was sick for a month or more before recovering from them. There are 30 or so coxsackie/echo viruses. They also follow the nerves. I've seen kids get triggered by streps and vaccines. There are all of these suspicious "miscellaneous entero viruses" (echo and coxsackie fill the bill).

    Based on all this I had to widen out my hypothesis of causality that any of these can tip somebody over that edge if they are on it. Something puts a large strain on a marginal system at a tipping point and over they go into a different metastable condition from which one often doesn't recover without an intervention of correcting that which tipped.

    Shortly after my own startup experience with Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl I was forced to do a 10 brand comparison because the ENZY product was backordered and I had to find something. I had already identified 4 other local people who had the same reaction as I did. After identifying Jarrow of that period, 2003 as the only other brand with the same effectiveness I did my own N=1000 questionnaire development study. To sum it up, if people had a suitable subset of symptoms contained on the lists I have posted, they had a sizable response within 1 hour to MeCbl 1mg or 5mg, and later AdoCbl 3mg. If they genuinely didn't have a spread of those symptoms they had no noticeable response. It didn't matter what theories they had about how or why they had these symptoms. The symptoms themselves told the story. The more and more severe the symptoms, the stronger the response.

    So then we get to another group of people I know around here; my partner, my ex wife and some others who just don't have partial methylation block or methyltrap. They have tried all these things. My kids reacted like I do, 100%. My ex and all the others have no significant response to any of the deadlock quartet. They have no methylation startup. They have no donut hole folate deficiency. They have no paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms with folic acid. They have no folinic acid paradoxical folate deficiency. They have no low potassium response. They had no pent up demand for healing.

    My conclusion is that the original cause has little to do with where they end up. If they have a spread of these symptoms they have the same set of responses, with the variations we see around us. Without the symptoms they don't have the responses. If the have the symptoms, then they have the deficiencies, however they got there, and they have the responses. That at least makes for a usable working hypothesis that takes everything I know into account. The original causes or diagnosis seems to have very little to do with any of it, except maybe for the variations.

    The paradoxical folate deficiency seems to relate to the MTHR polymorphisms to some extent or another and who knows what else. There also is an unusual strong physiological preference for l-carnitine fumarate (about 90%) or ALCAR (about 10%) and a vitamin like need for it. Perhaps these may be the predisposing items that put a person on that edge, ready to be knocked off by an opportunistic infection or other physical challenge. I can trace my early symptoms back to infancy. I was always hit so much harder by illnesses than most others around me.
    .
    S.A. likes this.
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    @Freddd

    Wow that is quite impressive! Thank you so much for all the info it definitely helps things to be seen in a much broader perspective and range for me... As for myself I don't know what symptoms stem from what, as they are just too sporadic and all over the place. This is definitely useful stuff to show when discussing with other people though!

    So do you believe then that the cure to CFS would be the methylation protocol? At least in the case that their issues stem from this cause in the first place.. I know there can be many different factors at play of course, though I am sure with most chronic illness this would definitely help to push for remission even if it is not the single cause of remission for all!

    I already know plenty who have recovered from adrenal fatigue thanks to the methylation protocol.. This putting a stump to the old theory of needing high dose vitamin C and other things they use for that..

    Most interesting about adrenal fatigue is that it is commonly known that people in that state do not really digest and process potassium that well, I always see suggestions on forums about avoiding too high dose foods of potassium.. I wonder what the correlation to methylation is there.. Some kind of methyl trap perhaps?
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Martial,

    I suggest 6 grams of vit C daily or even more. For years I took 16 grams a day and I'm currently back to 14 grams of C a day. One of the common symptoms as children that I had, and that I was reminded of by the study Rich VK and Dr Nathan did, included bloody noses. Mine ended suddenly with vitamin C. I haven't had a bloody nose in more than 40 years since starting vit C. I remember being about 2 years old and my dad coming into my bedroom and he was absolutely horrified to see a pile of bloody Kleenex tissues in a pile in front of me and a mostly empty box on my lap as I used one after another. The last one I had was in the middle of a performance of Handel's Messiah, singing tenor in the chorus. I had potassium problems as a child as well, and now can see how they fit in with the periodic paradoxical folate deficiency I had as a child each 2 weeks as has continued all my life. There are still so many mysteries.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Edit, Riboceine works too much in the same way as NAC.. It causes methyl trap and I can no longer use it as part of my protocol.. I do not suggest anyone on freddd's protocol use either NAC or Ribociene.
    Hanna likes this.

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