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Gluthione Pre Cursor

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Martial, Feb 3, 2014.

  1. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Hey everyone! I was recently looking into some nutritional supplementation and found something I think everyone could benefit from!

    I was talking to my nutritionist friend and got to talking about oxidative stress, and things to use for immune strengthening and the like.. I talked about possibly wanting gluthione shots but he told me about a really interesting supplement that contains something called Riboceine.

    Riboceine is a pre cursor to gluthione production in our body, and the supplement is supposed to actually raise the natural production and production of gluthione in the cellular system.. What I find very cool about this is that it makes our bodies produce it at the rate it is needed internally, this cutting out the need for long term and expensive therapies of gluthione IV, injections, and supplementation.

    Now I was going to post the full background of Riboceine and how it all works here on the forum but actually found a nice section of the site that explains the science and history behind it quite well. It also has links to all the testing, different backgrounds and information on the doctors who created it..

    The supplement manufacturer is called Max international and they have several different products that contain the gluthione pre cursor Riboceine, in the nutritional section.. They also sell things for skin care, and weight loss but that is not what is focused on here lol..

    Here is the link to the science page!

    http://www.max.com/science/max/full/us/en/overview

    And the supplement page!

    http://www.max.com/products/max/full/us/en/nutritionals

    I hope everyone finds this info useful and posts if it does provide any benefit for them! I myself am using it to treat lyme, I will be getting a nutrient test soon as well.. I will report what the changes to my natural gluthione levels are after using this supplement!

    I really feel like this is the perfect thing that can help people in dealing with chronic illness like M.E., Chronic Fatigue, Lyme, Post Viral syndrome, etc!
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Actually the science on riboceine isn't very impressive. NAC is more effective, a lot cheaper and has tons of research behind it.

    The whole post sounds like a sales talk. Max International is a multi level marketing company. I wouldn't touch them or their products with a stick.

    First the post on Conversion Disorder, and now this. I guess some people think we are stupid over here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
    SOC likes this.
  3. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I thought NAC wasn't recommended by Freddd though, as it interferes as a trap in the methylation cycle? If not then I would probably already be using Nac!

    Fair enough bro, I am just putting the info out there I thought it looked pretty promising myself.

    I don't have any affiliation with the company I just heard about it from my nutritionist and looked into it like I mentioned, I am trying to just figure shit out myself man give me some slack.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    NAC appears to cause so much glutathione to be made in some people (NAC detox) that it causes methyltrap by flushing essentially all the active b12 from the body that isn't nailed down.

    I have no opinion at all on riboceine.

    Starting methylation and ATP appears to normalize glutathione though there are many things that may influence that.
     
  5. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    if you have liver damage NAC really does save the liver and protect it. but does long term NAC at some dose cause heart wall thickening, pulmonary hypertension? my heart rate is high like 105 after being on it and supplements
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Physicsstuddent,

    If I had APAP poisoning NAC would save my life, taking it for a day or whatever. Long term it can cause methyltrap and the ensuing hundreds of symptoms.

    As it can flush all the b12 from the body causing methyltrap, severe methylfolate deficiency symptoms, there are all sorts of things it can cause. Following onset of methyltrap I developed congestive heart failure and had CFS/FMS and a totally collapsing body, all systems were malfunctioning and getting worse by the year. I wasn't taking NAC those years. I developed it all in the course of life and being a vegetarian.
     
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    @Freddd

    That is all pretty fascinating stuff, whats your opinion in methylation issues for chronic inflammation?

    I have been using the protocol for sometime now and it helps tremendously, however on the scary side the cause of my illness is Lyme disease and I have chronic body wide spread inflammation as a result.

    Most notably is brain encephalopathy from the bacteria with hypo perfusion..

    I think I read somewhere that the methylation protocol makes pre existing inflammatory conditions worse? The last thing I want to do is cause my brain to have worse inflammation then it already does, as probably my heart and other organs as well! Was I wrong or misread this? I definitely want to stay on the protocol and as of now use the methyl b12, adob12, methyl folate, and L carnitine fumarate.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Martial,

    Actually, with AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and carnitine inflammation decreases rapidly and dramatically as soon as one gets out of folate deficiency generally. If a person starts b12 and goes into paradoxical folate deficiency, inflammation goes up fast. It also goes now fast with sufficient methylfolate. Zinc is necessary as are most all of the vitamins and minerals. There is a series of steps, getting healing started, taking care of induced low potassium and then low folate, increasing until symptoms are gone. The adding other things as needed to balance everything well. It isn't all that simple and the protocol is very fussy; one has to recognize the symptoms and correct them.
     
    PennyIA likes this.
  9. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I just take a shit ton of folate and potassium to compensate, usually my skin breaking out is indicative when folate is low lol, thinks for your response! Did not know about the zinc though going to need to stay on top of that.. I try not to supplement too high with it as it can deplete copper absortion pretty drastically.
     
  10. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    How much folate are you currently taking Martial?
     
  11. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    800mcg folate, 5,000 mg methyl b12, 3,000mg ado b12, 800 mg carnatine fumarate.

    I also do methyl b12 injections a couple times a week.

    I only super dose folate when i feel deficiency.. over all the amount i take in for the entire protocol is relatively moderate.
     
  12. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    Gotcha. Yeah yesterday I went up to 8,000 mcg folate because I've been feeling like crap for a while and I'm starting to wonder if it's in fact a deficiency. I just get really nervous about doing super high doses even though it's supposedly safe.

    I don't have CFS or anything serious, just basic methylation issues that I know of. I just feel "off" every day and go through periods of nauseousness every day too. So 8,000 seems like it would be excessive for me, but who knows.

    Also been reading more about this whole glutathione thing and am wondering if the whey protein I've been drinking is perhaps making things worse. I'm sure it's denatured to an extent because it's pasteurized, but I don't know just HOW denatured it actually is since it's a grass fed whey concentrate so it's higher quality.

    Trying to cut that out for a few days and see if anything improves.
     
  13. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Oh no wonder dude! Whey is a methyl trap! Just stay off that stuff... when I work out and I used to be very fricking strong before developing lyme I used a specific protein powder from t-nation called Plazma.. It is the highest quality protein powder you can purchase and relatively cheap as well, it also does not cause methyl trapping..

    Also damn 8,000 is pretty high, Idk how you can afford that long term unless the dose just comes really high as is... I mainly use pretty moderate doses because thats all I can budget.. Plus I do not want to risk getting very severe potassium deficiency problems. Supposedly it also will not show up as much different then low normal in blood tests as well.. Using freddd's protocol it is best to get hair and mineral testing to see how much potassium are in the cells rather then serum blood levels..

    I checked into the hospital for lyme related things semi recently and my potassium level read 3.9 will eating plenty of yams, bananas, coconut water, and other potassium containing products.. this was before I added carnatine and adob12 though, I wonder what my blood levels would register now..

    here is link to protein powder http://www.t-nation.com/store/products/plazma

    Honestly I would only use very selected brands of protein powder as well, most places do not test for heavy metals in processing. A large portion of protein supplements have shocking amounts of lead, arsenic, mercury, and cadmium that are mixed in during manufacturing. Only use a company that you can ask and find proof of checking for heavy metal testing.. Or stick with t-nation as I already know they always do active testing on their product line.
     
  14. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    Yeah I'm very familiar with t-nation's stuff actually. I've been reading their articles for years. Plazma is more of a peri-workout supplement though as opposed to a straight protein powder, and to be honest, it's overpriced for what you get.

    I use the whey for other parts of the day too when I make smoothies in my Vitamix, so the Plazma wouldn't really work there since it's meant for the workout window only. I get my protein from TrueNutrition.com which is a very reputable company and their grass-fed whey is quality stuff.

    And yeah I agree the 8,000 mcg of folate is a bit high and ideally I don't want to have to take so much, but I'm just experimenting with a higher dose to see if the symptoms I'm getting are indeed the folate deficiency that Freddd talks about. I don't know though, I didn't feel any different taking 8,000 yesterday than I did when I was at 4-6 pills a day. So either I need even more, or the symptoms are from something else. It's so hard to figure all of this out...

    The thing that makes me think it's potentially folate deficiency is when I started methylating again, I noticed improvement for the first few days, then it got bad again, then I upped my dose and felt a little better for a few days, then it got worse again, and so on. But this time around, upping my dose doesn't seem to be having much of an effect. Maybe I just need more time?

    I didn't do the whey today and will try eliminating it for the next few days to see if anything changes. If not, I guess I can rule that out.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Jay,

    It can take 1 or 2 weeks for the produced glutathione to wash out of the body. Because it eliminates the AdoCbl and MeCbl, causing a methyltrap situation that causes a b12 deficiency to manifest as a folate deficiency, one needs to replace significant amounts of b12 to get rid of the folate deficiency symptoms as it isn't caused by folate deficiency as such. Then with the MeCbl and AdoCbl (5 star brands) and l-methylfolate then the symptoms can depart.
     
  16. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    Hmmm, never thought of it that way. So how much B12 do you recommend I increase to? The past few days I've been doing 4,000 mcg of MeB12 and 1,000 mcg of AdB12. I use this one from Seeking Health which is a mix of both B12's: http://www.seekinghealth.com/active-b12-lozenge-362.html

    Also, should I decrease my folate intake then?

    Could this explain my constant feeling of nauseousness?

    Thanks.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jay,

    I have no way to know. That brand of b12 is untested by me so I have no idea whether one or both components are 5 start. I would start with the known 5 star MeCbl and AdoCbl, titrate by effectiveness, watch for low potassium and low folate symptoms, balance those out and get everything humming along and then go back to this other brand of b12s and see if it can maintain the healing that started with the known brands. Since one brand can have zero effectiveness compared to another brand with excellent effectiveness one just can't know without a standardized situation to start with. Otherwise everything is a guess.
     
  18. Jay1218

    Jay1218

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    Hi Freddd,

    Yeah I hear you. I will order the brands you recommend and try those out then.

    So you mentioned that B12 deficiency can mask itself as folate deficiency. How exactly do I know which one I have then? Say I'm increasing my B12 and I'm still noticing the symptoms I've been experiencing. When do I say "ok, this is folate and no longer B12"?

    I know the question is highly subjective, but is there a way to possibly differentiate between a real folate deficiency and B12 masking itself as folate?

    Thanks.
     
  19. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    @Jay1218 Wow, I am actually suprised most of the time no one knows what t-nation is! Yeah sounds like you are doing everything right, but like freddd says I guess whey in a concentrated form can act as a methyl trap. Maybe there are certain blends or ways that it can be made to prevent this though.. Actually the brand name you mentioned sounds really promising for that.

    As for folate deficiency I think that is very unlikely at the amount you use... B12 deficiency would be this

    • weakness, tiredness or light-headedness
    • rapid heartbeat and breathing
    • pale skin
    • sore tongue
    • easy bruising or bleeding, including bleeding gums
    • stomach upset and weight loss
    • diarrhea or constipation
    and later on you can get very bad neurological issues, dementia, psychosis, difficulty walking, and the like..

    methyl folate would show

    Loss of appetite and weight loss can occur. Additional signs are weakness, sore tongue, headaches, heart palpitations, irritability, and behavioral disorders.

    Usually depression is a pretty big hallmark of folate deficiency..

    Folate deficiency would show up in a blood test as anemia if it got low enough..

    folate can mask the symptoms of b12 deficiency which would cause progressive neurological issues with no anemia, however I don't think b12 could cover folate deficiency too much.

    Are you also currenty using L Carnatine Fumarate, and Ado b12?
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jay,

    first switch to the brands of b12 that we know works. Get off whey, glutathione, NAC, get a low dose b-complex, a,d,e,c,. magnesium, zinc, omega3 oils, lecithin and so forth going, and balance out potassium. It doesn't make itself as anything. A lack of effective4 b12 in the cells causes expulsion of folate causing real genuine folate deficiency symptoms. It just isn't understood or recognized generally as it looks paradoxical.
     

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