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Glutathione: Pro / Con arguments confuse me!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jorlev, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I can't think of anyone better than Rich. He understood this and many other health related matters beyond methylation better than almost everyone here.
    You'll have to excuse me if I doubt the accuracy of your "trials". In one of them you claim 100% of the participants experienced adverse effects to glutathione/whey/NAC and that 100% recovered using 8mg dose of Metafolin and 10mg each of adb12 and mb12. There's no way that's possible. I'd be surprised if even 30% had the exact same experience. I know that the methylation dosages vary a lot for each individual so even if I'm to believe that everyone had an adverse reaction to glutathione (which I don't) it is impossible for everyone to everyone to have a complete reversal of symptoms using the exact same dosages of B12 and folate. Many people here would be very sick taking even a fraction of 8000 mcg methylfolate and 10,000 mcg methylcobalamin. In another "trial" you recommend 150,000 mcg methylcobalamin (3 50 mg doses) and multiple 15,000 mcg doses of methylfolate. This is very misleading and dangerous to people just learning about methylation and someone could get very sick if they were to believe this would help their "healing".
     
  2. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    My Dr just suggested I try a glutathione patch, was wondering if any of you have tried that and what were the results. TIA
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    You'll have to excuse me if I doubt the accuracy of your "trials". In one of them you claim 100% of the participants experienced adverse effects to glutathione/whey/NAC and that 100% recovered using 8mg dose of Metafolin and 10mg each of adb12 and mb12. There's no way that's possible. I'd be surprised if even 30% had the exact same experience.

    You can doubbt what you want becasue it doesn't go with your beliefs. Having 100% results is unusual. However, this was a very selected trial. Everybody was from a very specific group. They all had tuned healing on in a big way. They had all gotten methylation going, got out of methylblock and out of ATP block and were 6 months to 4 years into healing with the active b12s, small l-methylfolate doses (hard to get as vitamins at that time, I had bought as many of the only Source Natural batch as I could and was taking 400mcg a day waiting for the Solgar Metafolin to become avaialble), and were experimenting with carnitines and were healing but, there were clearly still missing items. The N=1000 questionaire results are probably more what you would expect. Of 1000 random people willing to answer a whole lot of questions about symptoms they had or didn't have, about 50% of the whole population had a 1-2 hour response to 1000mcg of mecbl held for more than an hour. Of those with CSF/FMS/ME type symptoms, 75% had the response. Other runs were done with a variety of doses of MeCbl (no difference in response), AdoCbl (75%), MeCbl and AdoCbl slightly more about 80% or so responded. Eventually by adding a b-complex, l-carnitine and L-methylfolate before the combined b12s the response rate came up to 95%. Then other factors, like Vit D especially, p5p, b1, b2, b3, Sam-e, magnesium, zinc and so on each added a small increment of responsive percentage.

    This questionaire has been the development target for 10 years. This questionaire lets me pick out a matched group. It links specific symptoms to specific responses of specfic nutrients. The group selected for the glutathione (precursor) trial was picked for their known responses to the nutrients. The variability was in the forms of the glutathione and precursors and the doses. This affected the results. From looking at from the outside, I selected a bunch of people I would expect to be able to notice an effect and to interpret responses and who all had similar symptoms profile. Now I would say that all of the them were originally in a group that had partial methylation block, methyltrap and partial ATP block. In other wards they all had proven susceptabilty to these things, and every one of them, like me, was sure that there were still missing items. So this was a very selected group based on my hypothesis of who still had things that could respond to factor x, whatever factor x was. You see, we all kind of expected that this was going to be the facter that would heal us the rest of the way. From the original intent of the trial we had 0% positive response in finding a beneficial item. From that viewpoint the trial was a complete failure. From the original point of view of being able to pick a matched group, the trial was a 100% success. That glutatione (precursors) made us all sick with return of symptoms (specifically mentioned in glutathione detox literature). Becasue we had all come out of partial methylation block and methyltrap and partial ATP block, we all recognized the symtpoms. We were not a symptom naive grouping. Then it took us 6 more months of floundering around and relapapsed, back into the pits of hell. We were all taking our usual doses of things. Solgar Metafolin came on the market. Somebody said to me, "I just took twice my usual dose of metafolin and b12s for a few days and I'm out of glutathione detox now." I tried it and it worked. All the others tried it and it worked. The spectrum response of the "detox" reactions was affected by dose and form. Whey was the mildest and slowest, glutathione IV was fastest and generally the severity of detox appeared related to the prior severity of illness; the sicker they had been the sicker they got again.

    If you examined Rich's study you would find that they selected very specifically for people with specific symptoms and not others. Every study has selction criteria, but are not always effective. For instance a study on MeCbl being use to treat neuropathy selected by symptoms. They did the usual serum and urine testing but selected entry by symptoms. 62% of the responders would have been excluded from the study based on test criteria. SO the average cbl level was over 700pg/ml before b12. The highest cbl serum levels of responders was over 1500pg/ml at the start. So obviously symptoms are better selection criteria than test results for b12 trials. Also it was a dual dose study, 120mcg and 1500mcg daily. The ones receiving 1500mcg healed faster and more thoroughly during the course of the study showing a very definite dose proportinality. Without any other cofactors the response rate tops out between 60% and 80% in b12 studies. So how well one selects and how well the cofactors are covered all influence the response rate.


    I'd be surprised if even 30% had the exact same experience.

    Nobody had the EXACT same experience. They had the same general experiences. The range of experiences followed a more or less normal distribution curve. In any case anything showng only a 30% repsonse would likely be called "placebo" unless there was a placebo group at the same time to compare it to. However, it was a group selected for a likely response, hopefully beneficial.


    Many people here would be very sick taking even a fraction of 8000 mcg methylfolate and 10,000 mcg methylcobalamin. In another "trial" you recommend 150,000 mcg methylcobalamin (3 50 mg doses) and multiple 15,000 mcg doses of methylfolate. This is very misleading and dangerous to people just learning about methylation and someone could get very sick if they were to believe this would help their "healing"

    As these were all people who had titrated up to their doses over up to several years, and basically doubled the dose they had continued taking withiut effect during the entire trial and after, doubling it seemed very reasonable. Bringing up some new person in this context is a straw man and is very misleading and dangerous to people



    In another "trial" you recommend 150,000 mcg methylcobalamin (3 50 mg doses)

    You couldn't be more wrong You are 100% wrong in every particular on this reckless, dangerous and misleading statement. I did a trial of injections of 3x60mg and reported the results as worse than 3x10, which may have been becasue it was only a 3 start MeCbl. I was attempting to see if there was a dose proportinality in the CNS as in the body, a way to simuilate the intrathecal injections without it's hazards. I absolutely did not reccommend this for anybody based on this trial. It was expensive, a real pain and quite useless. What it did give me was a high dose calibration of urine color and was the only thing comparable to the urine following glutathione. So that was a success only in that regard. Another person also tried his high dose form. He is qualified to give IVs and did a 500mg IV infusion over some hours, also trying for some spectacular spinal cord healing with 5 star MeCbl.. His only results were "incredibly lurid urine". I am ALWAYS doing trials. Data is data and is useful even with no results or negative results.

    In fact I suggest that better results will usually be achieved with 5 star sublinguals compared to injections. There are more things that can go wrong with injections.


    The studies done for high dose safety have resulted in the treatment for cyanide poisoning of 35,000,000 mcg IV infusions (AdoCbl, MeCbl or HyCbl), one after another until all the cyanide is detoxed and removed from the body as cyanocobalamin. This followed giving high doses to uremic persons who can’t flush it out in urine and then watching and testing for the effects. I know it may come as a shock to you but 35 grams, 35,000,000 mcg, has no more effect than an injection of 7.5mg. On the body (not CNS) 7.5mg injection has no more effect than a 3mg injection.



    The trials of DEPLIN were for 7.5mg. 15mg and 30mg doses per day. What side effects were there? What was said is very close to this: Deplin is generally well tolerated with no side effects different from placebo. This was a trial with depressed people. Cerefolin with NAC was a whole different story. They had some horrendous (“detox”) side effects that nobody of course recognized as methyltrap onset.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I know of nobody trying that, no results at all. As a patch it is likely to be low and slow and that might be a way that avoids problems. If you are successfully established on MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF then you will be able to see if it hinders or enhances healing or no change. Good luck.
     
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Freddd
    You're right. "Recommend" was a poor choice of words and I apologize for that. However, your conclusion says this
    Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    This is what it took to mostly heal the NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE done by the glutathione trial. So if somebody has sufferred neurological damage from glutathione of the Subacute combined degeneration type, in the CNS, and this person is of the groups that have difficulty gettting and/or retaining b12 in the CSF, then this is a pragmatically determined treatment that has a chance of working. If you search the internet you will see that this is as far as I could find, the only experience of reversing SACD damage by anybody. It's tricky and very particular in application. Timing is critical. Combinations are critical. Missing up one day can cause a week or longer setback. It is so tricky and so improbable, healing assumed "permanent" neurological damage, that it is clear whay nobody else has found it. It is way outside of Standards of practice with b12 in the USA and UK becasue the research has ignored this and focused on the HyCbl and CyCbl with which SACD is permanent damage. Got to watch out for those assumptions. The wrong assumtions and beliefs can keep a person sick for the rest of their miserable lives, like mine used to be.

    This that you quoted is real bleeding edge information done in desperation (by me and others) after decades of fruitless searching for a solution to our problems which doesn't exist outside of this. With this information, while not perfect, some peole will have a chance. Wirthout it they are consigned to the heap of people that the docs want to avoid becasue they can do nothing. Without this information, even while my body was healing my SACD continued to advance. It was of course the Japanese research done on high dose cobalamins that pointed the way. I and those who worked on this with me in traditions of medical research were looking for our own cures for our own problems and tested them on ourselves. There was plenty of peer reviewed research that points the way. It is a little piece here and there put together from perhaps a 1000 papers from all around the world. It just isn't all in one paper.

    Now if you were falling down and losing the sensations in your feet and legs, and couldn't tell where they were and understood the nature and progression of subacute combinded degeneration if it is not stopped or better yet reversed, it is a bigger hazard than anything else we have talked about. It is a slow progressive miserable and painful death by slowly lossing your body and your mind and personality ending in basically paralysis and death from paralysed diaphram and/or heart wirh extreme psychosis along the way. It's much worse than Alzheimer's in my opinion. That is more gentle. Check out "central pain". Brain damage can do that. SACD is brain and cord damage. If it isn't stopped it is deadly eventually, but very miserable getting there.

    And regardless of what you think, a lot of science can be done on small budgets. I would love to get my hands on an NMR and mass spec for a few sessions with a person skilled in their use and interpretation. I believe that we could then identify why a specific batch of MeCbl can be very superior or totally worthless. Right now, b12 selection comes down to taste testing, like for wine or beer. I'm sure that can be improved upon and an even better variety of MeCbl to be found, one that can heal SACD all the way perhaps, And MS, ALS and Parkinson's and prevent Alzheimer's and autism too with a lot of luck.

    So perhaps you can't read 1000 papers and come up with the vital nuggets from each of them and mold it into a useful understanding and so disbelieve that anybody else can. I'm just me. I can't play the piano worth a tinker's damn. But I sure can read and extract nuggets of info and rearrange them and fit them into pragmatic results from me and many others, which leads to re-arranged understanding. Calling all sorts of things "Detox" just confuses everybody when it means any of half a dozen or more different things, even mutually contradictory things. No useful understanding can emerge, no useful conversations, unless a vocabulary can be agreed upon to mean specific things, specific objects in a modern programing meaning. Just trying to put all this into an object oriented form and clearing up (disambiguation by Wikepedias terms) meanings produces howls of protest. All sorts of theories exist only because of the confusions of language. I try to define things to make assumptions explicit rather than all sorts of hidden meanings and ambiguous meanings. I use a lot of puns because that goes to the heart of the meaning problem. A computer can't understand a pun (perhaps Watson excluded) and make a suitable response. So a person in detox may need an injection of Valium to keep them from having fatal seizures in the ER. Ambiguity costs lives.




    Be in good health.
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That dosage of B12 and folate would make a lot of people here very sick. I stand by what I said earlier. I'm not just talking from my own experience. I've read a lot of accounts from other people. And I trust Rich who has read a lot of information on this subject.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    You know I can go quote Mentanx and all such things too. Don't you trust all these peer reviewed journal articles to give you the straight spiff? I also read between the lines. Something that aids understanding is reading the study and finding out how many people dropped out from their side effects and what the side effects were. Their explanations in the journals are usually whacked if they try to explain. Mostly they chalk it up to side effects they expect to see in a certain percentage and so they discard all the clues to what has to come next. The difference between Deplin/Metanx compared to Cerefolin-NAC is stunning and nobody at all tries to account for it, except me.

    I also trust accounts of experiences of other people. However, I don't trust lor use their explanations without very careful consideration So, you don't like what I have to say from independent research and you don't like peer reviewed research. Who you going to call? Ghostbusters!
     
  9. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Please provide link to your comments about Metanx, I take this and would like to read your observations. thx
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I'm sorry to say that they are lost somewhere amongst 3000+ posts. A search of my posts limited to the methylation directory with Metanx in the search string might find it. I've made a number of comments here and there. It was not a full review of the paper though. Also, the professional package insert online ought to tell most everything.

    The comments I will make just in general is that the oral dose of MeCbl is insufficiently absorbed for general healing. I haven't tested it for neurological effect and there is no way to do so. It also has p5p and a decent dose of Metafolin. The amounts in have been tested for reduction of Hcy and it works very well for that.

    A simple search brings up things like this


    Metanx® is a medical food that provides the nutritional requirements needed by diabetes patients to restore the metabolic processes associated with diabetic neuropathy to support peripheral nerve and blood vessel health.Common side effects of using Metanx include a feeling of swelling of the entire body, numbness or tingling, sleepiness, headaches, nausea and mild diarrhea.

    Consider that the headaches, nausea and diarrhea are know reponses that in my opinion represent startup induced deficiencies that are quickly and esily correctable generally.
    The active dietary ingredients in Metanx® are well tolerated in short-term and chronic therapy. The side effects are similar to a sugar pill.14 For complete prescribing information, Click Here.
    Does anyone know if Metanx medication causes nighttime foot and legs cramps? I started taking Slow-Mag tablets and it seems to help with the ...
    Sounds like this person had startup and probably low potassium

    Metanx may also cause serious side effects such as persistent tingling or numbness. Increase in the RBCs count is also one of the severe side effects associated ...
    Drugs added to Metanx®: Antibiotics may alter the intestinal microflora and may decrease the absorption of methylcobalamin. Cholestyramine, colchicines or colestipol may decrease the enterohepatic re-absorption of methylcobalamin. Metformin, para-aminosalicylic acid and potassium chloride may decrease the absorption of methylcobalamin. Nitrous oxide can produce a functional methylcobalamin deficiency. Several drugs are associated with lowering serum folate levels or reducing the amount of active folate available. First generation anticonvulsants (carbamazepine, fosphenytoin, phenytoin, phenobarbital, primidone, valproic acid, valproate)25,26 and lamotrigine27 (a second-generation anticonvulsant) may decrease folate plasma levels. Information on other second-generation anticonvulsants impact on folate levels is limited and cannot be ruled out. Diavalproex sodium28, topiramate29, gabapentin30, pregabalin31, levetiracetam32, tiagabine33, zonisamide34, have not reported the potential to lower folate in their respective prescribing information. Methotrexate, alcohol (in excess), sulfasalazine, cholestyramine, colchicine, colestipol, L-dopa, methylprednisone, NSAIDs (high dose), pancreatic enzymes (pancrelipase, pancratin), pentamidine, pyrimethamine, smoking, triamterene, and trimethoprim may decrease folate plasma levels. Warfarin can produce significant impairment in folate status after a 6-month therapy.And again not understanding the why of tingling and numbness or correcting such problems

    Is Metanx® Safe? The active dietary ingredients in Metanx® are well tolerated in short-term and chronic therapy. The side effects are similar to a sugar pill.14 For

    Metanx® is a medical food that provides the nutritional requirements needed by diabetes patients to restore the metabolic processes associated with diabetic neuropathy to support peripheral nerve and blood vessel health.

    Metanx® tablets are indicated for the distinct nutritional requirements of patients with endothelial dysfunction21-23 who present with loss of protective sensation13 and neuropathic pain24-26 associated with diabetic neuropathy.
    The active dietary ingredients in Metanx® are well tolerated in short-term and chronic therapy. The side effects are similar to a sugar pill.14 For complete prescribing information, Click Here.

    While allergic sensitization has been reported following both oral and parenteral administration of folic acid, allergic sensitization has not been reported with the use of Metafolin®. Paresthesia, somnolence, nausea and headaches have been reported with pyridoxal 5′-phosphate. Mild transient diarrhea, polycythemia vera, itching, transitory exanthema and the feeling of swelling of the entire body has been associated with methylcobalamin.

    http://www.metanx.com/helpful-resources/metanx-quick-facts/

    and even on the Metanx prescribing page they miss identifying the side effects of low potassium among other things. The entire package insert is at the listed click here, at lwasrt on the web page.
     
    roxie60 likes this.
  11. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I have persistent muscle tingling, it has reduced since I have reduced Metanx but still annoyng especially at night.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Roxie,

    That is a good sign when MeCbl and L-methylfolate make the nerves tingle. To me that indicates the nerves are waking up which happens before the nerve starts healing.. It makes all the things more intense. It can make muscles feel tighter (after they have been shrinking, real thing beiong felt. When one that is numb starts waking up first there is shooting pains. Then heavy duty pain and burning. Then incredibly intense tingles fading to tingles fading rto hyper sensitive and gradually fading towards normal. But it often feels "shattered" becasue I would expect there is thin coverage. We don't even notice the difference for the first 70% of loss. After that it is for real. In reading on reinnervated muscles there may be 10-30% of pre damage nerve density.
     
  13. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I might be confused but I interpreted my tingling as being caused by Mentanx, that by reducing my intake of Mentanx that th e tingling/twitching is reducing. From the reading I did here at PR last night it seems some suspect the P5P component of Mentanx. Am I understanding that you are interpreting my reduced tingling as an improvement by using Mentanx? I have backed off Mentanx significantly since the beginning of December. I have only had a few doses in the month of Feb. Chicken or the egg situation. I need to try the diary, want to just need to find an idea on how to format the data.
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I genuinely doubt it is the p5p. That accumulation of P5p to the levels needed for that problem is HUGE, and as far as I know, rare.

    However, that is a good reason to take separates, MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfoalte and then be able to add or contol how much p5p there is and to do A-B titrations. You need to KNOW, not guess.

    As Mecbl usually casues increased tingling and neurological damage awareness, about 100% of the time in people who heal these things, that seems more likely to me. However, only your trials will tell you. It is this intensification one needs to go towards to heal, not away from which prevents healing. That is my experience over and over, and that of just about everybody who does succeed in healing. This is one reason that research hasn't a clue. People have startup and drop out of studies leaving only those with weak responses at best.

    I created a set of abreviations for each medication taken responsively, each vitamin that had an effect and then numbers. So if the headache was bad I might have noted HA - 8 Stadol - 3mg for the date, and time in a standardized 24 hour format.
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Yeah, I prefer to take all my supplements separately. That way I have control over the dosage and know which ones are causing side effects. It's almost always cheaper to buy supplements separately rather than combination formulas. I suppose this wouldn't be the case if your insurance is covering Metanx.
     
  16. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    Stopped taking NAC due to the possibility that G was depleting my B12. Did notice a bit of urine color diminishment after doing so, so perhaps more 12 is being retain. Don't feel significantly difference but it's early yet.

    Could be coincidence, but took an ALCAT food sensitivity test recently and found walnuts, which I ate a fair amount of, caused a negative response for me. Then read that walnuts are high in G. Wonder if my body liking less G so as to retain more 12 would express itself in an immune system reponse to the depleting factor.

    Food for thought ( as long as that food isn't walnuts).
     
  17. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I'm also going to stop taking NAC, at least temporarily. If it does shuttle mb12 out of the body then it's not something I want to be supplementing right now.

    I did some fairly extensive reading on NAC before deciding to take it, but never saw this. Where can I read more about this mechanism? My google scholar skills must be lacking.
     
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xjhuez,

    No, I couldn't find anything on google scholar either. I don't think it exists, or if it does it isn't obvious. For instance, if you look up "NAC detox symptoms" you will find the clues. However, researchers don't call those symptoms "detox" generally. So what do they call them? Side effects Then unless a person takes relatively large amounts of b12s, there isn't enough to be visible. The visible flushing of b12 from the body by glutathione and NAC are original right here. NAC and glutithione "detox" as act

    Side effects (mostly gastrointestinal)
    occurred in 16% of patients taking NAC and in none of the patients taking placebo.

    and some notable side effects during treatment with NAC

    This study showed that intravenous NAC is gener- ally safe but side effects are common (14%)

    Anyway, may, if one looked at all the factors,dose, other drugs, initial ailments etc there might be some evidence. Not everybody who take NAC develops "detox". Gastro side effects were the most common I saw, and that could be methyltrap. But people in methyltrap may be getting treated for all sorts of things and since nothing would change, no side effects. Nobody being so treated is going to have enough b12 in their bodies to see in urine.

    Good luck.
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Anybody willing to take enough b12 to be strongly visible in their urine and then a suitable dose of glutathione can see with their very own eyes the b12 pouring put of their body regardless of ANYBODY's theory or explanation.

    However, glutathion in natural amounts does not appear to do so. However, maybe the reason why b12 has a serum halflife of 20-50 minutes after absorption is because that is the natural glutathione flusing it out until the glutathine level is brought down. I don't know. If however, NAC causes an increase of glutathione above a certain level so as to induce "NAC detox" (methyltrap) , then it too would have already flushed available active b12 from the body. If paradoxical folate deficiency is present it could also be ythat flushing at a lower level of inensity.

    And as already discussed, Rich's explanation is flawed as it depends on complrtely wrong assumptions about me. Further Rich says nothing about flushing B12 out of the body. I doubt that he ever observed or ex[perienced it. He did'n't re-write anything I am aware of taking recognition of this easily demonstrable fact into account.
     

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