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Glutathione & Precursors - Detox or Induced Methylb12 and Methylfolate Deficiencies?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Susan,

    I can't say that I had any effectiveness from folinic acid. 800mcg didn't replace 800mcg of Metafolin and I slowly developed my leading edge folate deficiency symptoms. I have no idea why folinic acid is doing that. I would suggest the Metafolin and cutting the pill. Then we can see what effect it has. I would suggest that you also be taking adb12 and potassium.

    If the Folinic acid was being effective than you might have depleted something else by starting to heal.
     
  2. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    Fredd,
    Thanks for your input. I responded but think it got lost.

    Will B12 alone do the Methylation? ....i think I can do that. My liver I realize is not wanting to metabolize this stuff ...happened with a drug earlier this year. The penny has dropped and I think this is my problem....my liver cant do supps. It can do B12 but my test results from Metametrex said I needed only a small amount compared to the Metafolin.....can B12 alone do the job.

    Yes I thought i was starting to heal but now have changed my mind.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Susan,

    Healing isn't a straight line at all. In a healing journey of 10,000 steps 9,999 are just different ways for things not to be right. A lot of things feel worse while healing and the neurology is the worst. In thinking more about your situation I have seen some really different neurological responses based on the balance between mb12 and adb12 and certain cofactors. You see, one is involved in the production of energy in the neurons and the other is involved in the functioning of the nerves in other ways. If the two get out of kilter it can cause all sorts of things. The liver doesn't do a thing to mb12 except store it for excretion and methylfolate is utilized in the cells. I would seriously suggest some adb12, even a single 3mg tablet sublingual a week. It's lack can cause metabolic and some cell reproduction problems and myelin production problems.

    These things heal in "waves" or layers. Many of the things that need to heal have an order they need to heal in so what is wrong changes, over and over. That is normal in this process.
     
  4. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Hello Fred,

    I checked my symptoms with glutathion detox reactions and metafolin deficiency symptoms list as you advised. Thanks. I found none in glutathion reaction list but some in folate deficiency list. So I hope I do not have methyl trap. Is this brand of metafolin ok to start with? http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-Metafolin-Folic-Acid-800-mcg-100-Tablets/13961?at=0
    What should be the initial dose? I am already on sublingual methylcobalamin 5000mcg daily along with potassium orotate 99mg daily. I tried to find an e-shop, that sells Deplin to Europe, but I did not find any.

    Thanx
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lala,

    The good news is all Metafolin is the same, only the dosage and brand name differs. Metafolin is licensed from Merck who discovered how to make a stable form of methyfolate they trademarked as Metafolin. I would start at 800mcg once or twice a day and see how response is and what is and isn't helped.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    REASONS WHY B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES DON'T WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE
    Version 2.0 - 03/10/11



    1. They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research “validating” their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesn’t work, oh well, that’s the accepted therapy. There is no “dose proportionate” healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzyme
    2. They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorbtion to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12. Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.
    3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorbtion back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorbtion is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorbtion tests comparing sublingual absorbtion to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.
    4. Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.
    5. For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesn’t work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.
    6. They don’t take BOTH active b12s.
    7. They don’t take enough active b12s for the purpose.
    8. Lack of methylfolate
    9. Folic acid is taken which can block at least 4 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.
    10. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 5 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.
    11. Lack of other critical cofactors.
    12. Lack of basic cofactors.

     
  7. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    did you recognize loss of appetite as a detox reaction? Its since I take more maethylfolate and more M-B12 before it wasnt. Any idea?
     
  8. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Freddd, Joopiter,

    Since going to the adenosyl B12 drops without foic acid, I am also going through an anorexia thing. Before when taking the Country Life ad b12 with folic acid, first thing in the morning, I was ravenously hungry. Since changing the types of ad b12, I am no longer hungry at all.

    Which could very well be similar to what Joopiter is experiencing, in that my dosages of methylfolate and methyl B12 remained high.

    Laurie
     
  9. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Has anyone taken Lipisomal Glutathione? My doctor suggested it, by Liv On Labs.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joopiter,

    Appetite loss is extremely common. It occurs for multiple reasons in multiple forms. One of the forms is with lots if tissue inflammation and is often accompanied by frequent nausea. Another form can be caused by nerve variation including peristalsis caused by nerve changes. As these things happen at certain stages, certain sets of conditions, they can happen both on the way down and during recovery

    I've also gone through periods of intense hunger. Additionally folate deficiency can cause it, often fairly quickly.

    uneasy digestive tract, stomach aches, feeling like throwing up, - diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints,

    The red is from the posting I did from the glutathione "detox" reaction description. The green is from the same posting from folate deficiency description. They both describe my experiences as well, dependent upon folate deficiency severity.

    However, the same list of symptoms also includes
    sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed. old symptoms coming back with induced deficiencies

    and I would have to add to that is that one passes through those same symptoms on the way to improvement. They are transitory during healing and often indefinite during deficiency.






     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lala,

    Here are the symptoms list and how they match up. Much of the differences is the glutathione detox list is fast acting and doesn't include the longer term or "worse" deficiency symptoms. I have added a couple to the folate list from my experience and that of others.

    low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

    irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavoral disorders and angular cheilitis, asthma, allergy symptoms, old symptoms coming back with induced deficiencies.


    flu like symptoms, low energy - sluggishness, fatigue, depression, muscle weakness, macrocytic anemia

    uneasy digestive tract, stomach aches, feeling like throwing up, - diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints,

    light headedness forgetfulness, confusion,

    sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed. old symptoms coming back with induced deficiencies. This covers a multitude of symptoms. It is the "returning" of them that is significant.

    runny nose or allergy symptoms, - asthma, allergy symptoms.

    coated tongue precedes, - followed by red sore tongue,

    Many of the symptoms from folate deficiency list take years to become apparent while others can happen rapidly. The description of the glutathione "detox" reaction didn't include all the ones I had in response to glutathione. Of course I had a huge universe of old symptoms to return. None of them were new at all, 100% were old symptoms.

     
  12. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Freddd, do you have any opinion on BH4 ?
    I have heard that some folic acid is necessary to increase BH4 levels, does that make sense ?
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Rvac,

    I don't have an opinion on it. Here is one thing I found that mentions lots of methylfolate as being very helpful. Many speak very inprecisely and use "folic acid" to stand for all folates.

    http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/bh4.php
    BH4 - Tetrahydrobiopterin

    Further Reading

    BH4.org
    pkuboard.info
    Yasko Presentation on bacteria/oxidation/tyrosine

    The Basics

    BH4 is an enzyme that is used to make serotonin, dopamine, thyroid hormones, melanin and to detox ammonia. It is recharged by folate and/or niacin and/or vitamin C. With certain combinations of the MTHFR gene, some people have a limited supply of BH4. Those people can probably be identified as those who have tendencies towards depression, low energy, all-or-nothing focus, hypothyroid (even subclinical), are pale, and may have elevated blood ammonia. These people will do best on small amounts of very high quality protein, and lots of methyl folate.
    Tetrabiopterin seems to be a common misspelling, and is generating a bunch of google hits, so I'll include that here, too for those of us who can't keep *that* many syllables in our heads at once. ;)
    Reasons to Suspect

    If you have low dopamine AND low serotonin AND low thyroid function (even subclinical). If you have high blood ammonia. If you have MTHFR polymorphisms.
    Sources

    The main way to increase BH4 is by recycling it with folate, niacin and/or vitamin C.
     
  14. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    I read that if theres a deficiency in DHPR then theres folinic acid given. But this then would interact with the methylfolate, hmmmm ????

    I really wonder why there is so much problem with folic acid. I dont think this can just be explained by superseding methylfolate tehre must be something else maybe because folic acid steals 4x NADPH to become tetrahydrofolate and maybe the methylation cycle then has a lack of NADPH.
     
  15. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Have you all taken Liposomal Glutathione? I have been taking that and Lipo. Vit C.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sallysblooms,

    I would't touch that with a 100 foot pole. I am finally getting neurological healing going again after a 2+ year setback and neurological deterioration caused by glutathione induced folate and b12 deficiencies. If this absorbs so much better this form might be even worse.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joopiter,

    I don't know why, jsut that it is. It might be because 20% of population can't convert folic acid to methylfolate at all, another 30% at less than 800mcg per day and everybody else limited to 800mcg per day at best. If it then competes with the Metafolin for absorption and for transport and doesn't convert, voila! instant deficiency. However, as people may need more than 800mcg then the competition could conceivably cause problems for everybody. That is what we don't know, what percentage and how bad. It would appear that what people have been calling "detox" symptoms from foilic acid and/or folinic acid is actually indiuced folate deficiency triggerring ,methylation block causing b12 deficiency symptoms for reasons of not having the vital cofacgtor of methylfolate so mb12 can't do it's job either. No wonder some people get so sick so fast with folic or foliic acid.
     
  18. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Were you taking B12? I have a high level of B12. Years ago I had a terribly low level (was not taking Glutathione) I was very ill without enough B12. Finally, I found good doctors, tested me for it and I got better after getting B12 up again.

    I do not take a large amount of the Lipasomal C and Glutathione, just a little of the paste in the package. The Choline in it is helpful for me too, in SMALL doses. Very helpful for my POTS.

    Were you taking a large amount? I am guided by my CFS doctor and she is very knowledgeable so I just wonder how much you took. I never take things on my own anymore. All brands and doses are working together or me, on a schedule each day.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sallysblooms,

    I was one of about 10 people taking active b12s, mb12/adb12 and Metafolin with excellent results who all tried it in a variety of precursors, forms and doses. 100%, every person, some faster, some slower, eventually had "glutathione detox reaction" which turned out to be an induced methylfolate deficiency followed by induced b12 defiencies. Glutathione inactivates mb12 and adb12 by combining with them and then they are rapidly excreted from the body by the kidneys. It is said that we have about 5mg of b12 in the body if "fully charged". It takes only a few mgs of glutathione to disable that essentially 100%. Recovery only came about by quitting glutathione and taking large doses of Metafolin, mb12 and adb12 which put an immediate stop to continuing problems and eventually repaired the damage. Folks who switched to mb12/adb12/Metafolin while taking it with their docs found no change until they discountinued glutathione, and then they had the expected benefits of the active b12s and Metafolin.

    CFS doctor and she is very knowledgeable

    My problems puzzled over 100 docs for decades. I was told by one female neurologist that "I could diganose you with FMS but that will only cause you to be treated badly because you have an imaginary woman's disease". This was back in the days when CFS and FMS were were called "yuppie flu" and other such completely disreputable things. A "knowledgable doctor" about b12 matters was an oxymoron. Mostly it still is today. Most people recovering from these things do so in spite of their docs, not because of them.

    So what kind of b12s are you using and what kind of folate?
     
  20. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Standard tests do not differate between B12 that is ready to use and oxidized B12 which is destroyed and useless. so you may have a "good" B12 level of oxidized and useless B12. There is no measurement of the real need of B122 for the methionine Cycle only for Adenosyl-b12 in the citric cycle by methylmalonsure.
     

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