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Glutathione & Precursors - Detox or Induced Methylb12 and Methylfolate Deficiencies?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Almost everywhere I turn in the treatment of CFS and FMS I see references to glutathione or glutathione producing precursors. There are a variety of theories leading to this idea. Like many I have been looking for ideas for years. I am essentially healed of FMS and CFS. I don't have enough symptoms left to qualify as a diagnosis, and of those remaining they lack the severity and punch they once had. I am for all intents and purposes healed. I still have some damage from years of b12 deficiencies. I still have some symptoms, of aging perhaps, as I'm 61 now, much older than when I started this journey. As I have followed a road of incremental improvment, I continue to look for that last cofactor that sets the residue of symptoms right. I had great hopes for the glutathione precursors. Instead of major improvment I had a major setback. Symptoms came thundering back in days that had been gone for more than 5 years. The trial lasted for 6 weeks until I called it quits when the direction of neurological change was clearly towards rapidly increasing neurological deterioration with increasingly numb feet, increased paresthesias, increasing irritability, decreased energy, brainfog, depression, angular cheilitis, headaches, memory impairment, sore muscles, sore joints, uncontrollable spasms in my legs and sides, nausea, loss of appetite, frequent indigestion, bloodspot itchy eyes, stuffy nose, hayfever. These symptoms had all been gone or mostly gone for 5 or more years since a year after starting methylb12. Every one of these were former symptoms of mine relieved by methylb12 and/or methylfolate.

    According to one website, http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html symptoms for glutathione caused detox reactions are low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

    The symptoms listed for folate deficiency on other web sites are irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavoral disorders and angular cheilitis.

    All of the symptoms not relieved by increased methylb12, increased potassium and increased calcium, those which lasted for 6 months past the end of the glutathione precursor trial were relieved within 3 days by increasing methylfolate from 800 mcg/day to 4800mcg/day.

    I did not immediately recognize all the symptoms as a hard folate deficiency since I had never had that before. I attributed them all to the methylb12 deficiency with which I was far more familiar. The cheilitis had always been unaffected by methylb12 and was this time. I hardly had noticed it at the time with all the other far more unpleasant and stronger symptoms. I find it normal that methylfolate immediately relieves methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Thats the way it happened last time but I had far few of them. I find it unusual that methylb12 and methylfolate immediately relieved all of the "detox" symptoms unless the root of the detox effect was to induce major methyb12 and methylfolate deficiencies with potassium and calcium balance upset too.

    When I first started methylfolate I noticed that it decreased the amount of b12 visible in my urine significantly. Within hours of taking glutathione precursors I started lossing a very nloticable amount of b12 in my urine. I diod not at the time attribute it to the decrease of folate in my system. This less continued tghe entire 6 week trial and decreased afterwards but never returned to the pre trial level. Within hours of when I took the increased level of methylfolate, b12 disappeared from my urine. Now 5 days later my urine is still clear most all day of visible b12 depsite injecting 30mg/day of methylb12.

    So whether or not glutathione does anything directly to methylb12 it appears to do something immediately to methylfolate in the body causing largescale excretion of b12 from the body. As a result both methylb12 and methylfolate are depleted within the body causing immediate deficiencies as demosstrated by immediate onset of certain funtional methylfolate deficiency symptoms. These items can't be restored and deficiency symptoms reversed as long as glutathione precursors continue to be taken. However, after cessation of glutathione precursors, within days methylb12 and presumably methylfolate can be restored but only by large increases of doses. I do not know what casues the lingering effects glutathione precursors on these subtances preventing 800 mcg of methylfolate daily from restoring normal folate funtioning over a 6 month period. I doubled the methylb12 within days of cessation as 15mg/day wasn't stopping progression of the deficiency symptoms. 30mg/day of methylb12 injection SC did stop them and started reversing them within a day several days after cessation.


    So, calling them "detox" symptoms lead to no useful treatment except to discontinue the glutathione precursors which did not in any way alter the symptoms. They continued on unchanged. However, to consider them methylb12 and methylfolate deficiencies along with an upset mineral balance and treating them for that resulted in their near immediate cessation.

    Let’s consider "point of view". How we think and talk about things is definitely influenced by point of view and the theoretical basis on which we base our thinking. This applies to everybody. So Person X has a point of view on one basis and person Y on a different basis. Persons X and Y see a set of symptoms following a sequence of supplements. They both see the same things. Have you read the Sufi story of the 4 blind men and the elephant" or "The Dermis Probe" in a more modern version? The 4 blind men are all describing different small pieces of the elephant and yet their descriptions appear entirely at odds when one doesn't know that each one is describing only the leg, trunk, side or tail. So Person X sees a sequence and results and calls it "Detox reaction" and Person "Y" calls it "Intensified deficiency symptoms". These sound contradictory and yet are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    They may just be a way of describing something based on a different aspect of it or a different understanding based on different theoretical basis. So calling it a "detox reaction expressed as intensification of symptoms normally associated with xyz deficiency" makes the combination. A “detox reaction” describes a process. “Intensified deficiency symptoms” describe a type of effect. So in a “detox reaction” a variety of things may happen. The reaction may deplete for some reason various nutrients or change a balance. Many of these items we are taking about are actively involved in detoxifying various types of toxins. In some of these events the active substance is destroyed as it detoxifies the item. In some cases the vitamin itself may be directly destroyed or excreted as part of the detoxification effect.

    A detoxification reaction by it’s very nature is limited and is over shortly after the toxin(s) is depleted. So in the case of cyanide, mb12 depletes the cyanide within days when massive amounts of b12 are used and it is over before the person dies of cyanide poisoning. The same thing happens with nitrous oxide. It destroys mb12 and is cleaned out of the system by doing so. With mercury, as the previously posted model shows, which is approximate as there are many things we don’t know about it, when it is methylated by mb12 then it is subject to excretion in the bile at about 1% per day, in excess of 97% a year. After a while, a couple of years more or less depending upon assumptions, there is no significant amount of mercury left. Botulism toxin requires days to months to neutralize fully. A die off of bacteria can release a sudden pulse of toxins from the bacteria. Again, the toxins are gone quickly and the body heals. Some toxins are difficult to get rid of and can have toxic effects for years. These are toxic effects, not the results of getting rid of the toxin.

    Vitamin deficiency symptoms can go on indefinitely and get progressively worse until something is done to reverse them. Only the vitamin in question will help. No substitutes work. In the case of glutathione and it's precursors, for whatever reasons, it appears to induce deficiencies of at least methylb12 and methylfolate, though which is impacted worse I can't say. It also appears to deplete or upset the mineral balance of potassium and calcium.

    Working from the point of view of vitamin deficiencies induced by glutathione or glutathione precursors for unknown reasons and treated as such allows prompt reversal of the symptoms. So the viewpoint that the symptoms are intensification of methylb12 and methylfolate deficiency symptoms allows the pragmatic result of immediate effecive corrective treament.

    Many severe methylb12 deficiencies provoke very strong immediate reactions from methylb12. Severe methylfolate deficiency provokes stonger immediate reactions than mild deficiency.




    Gondwanaland likes this.
  2. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Freddd, it is hard to follow these long posts for some of us.

    There is a huge and robust scientific literature on the benefits of glutathione. Moreover it is the foremost antioxidant in the body. You can do a pubmed search. In any case, my IV glutathione always makes me feel better, gives me more energy and improves my mood.
  3. kolowesi

    kolowesi Senior Member

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    freddd glutathione

    Hi, Fred,

    Thanks for all the work you have done to explain the B vitamin issues.

    I do get lost, not knowing enough biochemistry. (plus long paragraphs :))

    You are obviously extremely intelligent and a marvelous systems analyst (I used to be one too). So I take what you say very seriously, I just can't process it all.

    My experience is not scientific enough to be of value as anecdotal evidence. I've been on the "short protocol" for about a year and a half. Before that, I took methyl b12 (one a day, 5000 mcg) for years.

    B12 shots didn't make any discernable difference, but I wasn't taking active folate at the time, or the other cofactors.

    Glutathione shots gave me a "detox" reaction, as did lipoceutical glutathione.

    For now, I'm taking various active B's, some you recommended, and some I had on hand. I like the B Right. For now, I'm just taking ab12.

    I tried going without my bedtime un-denatured whey and had trouble sleeping. I'm not taking any other glut. precursors, though for the first 9 years, I took NAC and NAC Sustain.

    Just wanted to thank you, though I'm not sure what of your and others' experience applies to me. I'm happy that your brain works so well, and your data collection is impressive.

    Maybe there are others like me with active viral, fungal, and bacterial infections which create so much ambient noise that it's hard to tell what's going on with supplements. At least I think that is a problem, not really sure.

    Thanks again,
    Kelly
  4. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Yes Freddd, me too. When I do have energy, I don't want to use it all up reading such long posts on the computer. Please try to be more brief.

    And Jenbooks, I've also had tremendous benefits from the N-A-C, a precursor to the glutathione, even just this week. It has saved me from the agony of
    toxic overload an infinitely immeasurable amount of times.
  5. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    I should add that IV glutathione can stop an asthma attack in its tracks for me.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    I'll try to make my reply here concise. I did try to do that in the original post too by the way. It only has 1 part of under 15,000 characters. Some of my original formatting was lost coming out of Word and I failed to check that after posting. I will correct that for easier reading.

    There are a lot of reasons that my response may have been different from yours. First if you take 100,000 people and and chart their responses there will often be a bell shaped curve, a "normal" distribution curve. Sometimes it's bimodal or trimodal shoing that there is more than one distinct thing happeing. So there are always going to be differences.

    Another is in the "how" of taking it. An infusion of glutathione has only a very short period of action as it has a short serum halflife. In the reading I did longer acting precursors such as the NAC sustain that is mentioned in another post here, were recommended by many authors as being more effective. When precursors are taken that allow round the clock presence of a substance every day rather than a shortlived infusion once each week or two, the effects may be different.

    We may have differences within our bodies about how we process folate that makes a difference in this. For example I had a clear but relatively mild folate deficiency my whole life including when taking folic acid. It took methylfolate to clear that up which it did immediately at a dose of 800mcg/day. I am usually the one NOT covered by the 95% research. I'm usually outside the 2 standard deviations or whatever criteria are being used and pretty much ignored in research. Most research goes after that 95%, not those outside of it looking for the WHY they are outside of it.

    For healthy functioning my body does require a large amount of unbound b12 and that could be a difference from you. I start showing deficiencies when I loose that large unbound amount even though I would likely test as having very high serum cobalamin levels.

    It is an important antioxident in the body. Apparantly at some point the level is such that it can do something to methylfolate directly and methylb12 either directly or indirectly. As the symptoms that are typically called "detox" symptoms from glutathione and precursors essentially match the symptoms of folate and/or mb12 deficiencies, obviously it happens often enough to be noticed. In talking to people here that similarity jumped out at me. Then when I take the methylfolate and methylb12 in increased amounts they respond by promptly going away. I know this raises more questions than it answers but it happened none the less, despite the research showing some people have some benefits from it.

    I read a fair amount of research. That's why I tried it in the first place. In searching for what is going on with the folate and/or mb12 I have not found any relevant research yet, at least none that I recognized as relevant. If you come across some that is please post a quote and a link by all means.
  7. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Hi Freddd. It is true your case is somewhat unique, and of course very interesting. It's just hard for people to follow the long posts. One thought is to give a bullet 1/2/3/ summary upfront and then your longer thoughts after so people have a choice. It's a bit hard to follow otherwise.

    I tend to find that what my body "wants" and "likes" I learn through trial and error, and often later find out why. Maybe you were the same with your intuitive hint to get "the other B12" on the shelf. Thus I *know* IV glutathione is good for me and the immediate boost also has benefits that last for a week or two. Though it may get used up quickly, it probably restores the cells for a longer time than just a few hours. I hated nebulized glutathione, don't like supplements generally especially with fillers, don't tolerate B12 orally or in IV but that may be the cyano form as I haven't used it in many years, never noticed anything in the past from Sam-E, NAC, or ALA (and here Andrew Cutler claims ALA is the best chelator--it was just like taking water for me and I have a terrible mercury problem). So we're all individual. That's for sure!
  8. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    By the way I finally ordered the pure hydroxy b12 in water, and once I get past my current tooth problem and am stabilized from dental work I hope to try smidges of folapro and hydroxy.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    and here Andrew Cutler claims ALA is the best chelator--it was just like taking water for me

    I take ALA but for an entirely different reason. I take it, Alpha Lipoic Acid, as a helper for l-carnitine fumarate in transporting fats into the mitochondria for the Krebs cycle. It is said to increase the the efficiency about 50%. Here we run into one of theose differences in viewpoints and expectations. Based on an up to 50% increase I never expected that it would necessarily be noticable in any way. How did you expect it to be noticable? What did you expect it to do that you would notice? Why would you expect it to be noticable?
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kelly,

    It's good to make your aquaintance. As you know then, the smallest details can turn out to be critical ones. And you know all about rolling that car up the mountain over and over to make sure of repeatable results.


    Maybe there are others like me with active viral, fungal, and bacterial infections which create so much ambient noise that it's hard to tell what's going on with supplements. At least I think that is a problem, not really sure.

    You sure did put your finger on the problem here, noise. Whether it is caused by "viral, fungal, and bacterial infections" or something else it's a huge problem in knowing what is going on. I try to be very specific so as to elimiate many sources of noise. In your situation for instance you mention taking 5mg of methylb12 and that it didn't work but lack critical data, both brand and how it was taken which I have learned is critically important to produce results with it. On another thread I started off with many of the reasons people don't have results with b12. There were something like a dozen reasons including for injections.

    One of the more interesting telepathy experiments I've seen treated telepathy as a noisy channel. They sent the binary encoded message 1000 times. By around 700 sends the message was fully received and correct and not a bit changed in the next 300 sends. There were other flaws with the experiment that allowed it's critics to dismiss it and so it was ignored. Nutritional things like this is most definitely a noisy channel. People respond in all sorts of idiosyncratic ways and often have other things wrong with them.

    If you haven't looked at the list of symptoms, signs and co-correlates of active b12s and methylfolate I provided elsewhere you might find it interesting. As the methyfolate deficiency is near impossible to distinguish from b12 deficiencies based on symptoms, I grouped them together. Having several hundred entries that incudes all the symptoms from dozens of possible diagnoses makes for a noisy environment and a great deal of difficulty. The impulse of the practitioner is to take somebody with 200 symptoms etc and divide them up into 5-10 disorders, thereby missing the correct diagnosis. On the other hand there are often many other diagnoses lurking under the cover of what looks like b12 deficiency so there is a lot of discovered co-mormidity after the b12 layer is peeled off and seeing what remains.

    In your situation for instance the impaired imune function that would allow all those viruses, bacteria and fungi to lurk might be caused by or contributed to by a lack of b12 and some of those cofactors.


    B12 shots didn't make any discernable difference, but I wasn't taking active folate at the time, or the other cofactors.

    Here you minimize noise and give most of the information needed to understand exactly what you are saying.

    I'm not at all being critical of you so please don't take it that way. Basically you are saying you didn't have a response but there are reasons you may not have.

    At another location, the person taking un-denatured whey had all the same problems in it negating mb12 and methylfolate as evidenced by the symptoms it produced as those of us taking NAC & glutamine. The symptoms went away following cessation of the whey.

    If you would like to do a trial of active b12s again, this time making sure of all the little details to see if that does contribute to your situation, I would be glad to give you a helping hand in that.

    What is "lipoceutical glutathione".?
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    An addendum for gutathione effects

    An interesting and unexpected item to report concerning glutathione induced changes. Previously I had said that it appear largely confined to methylfolate and methylb12. Today, I am finding it did affect the adb12, at least indirectly via the methylfolate. I only take one dose of adb12 of 5-6 tablets each 5-7 days. It rides into the CSF with my injection on a combined diffusion gradiant. I had been at equilibrium on that and never noticed a thing when I took it. Today I have had a reaction equal to the first 17 tablet dose I took years ago. The methylfolate being restored made a huge difference. Now its bye bye brain fog. Without seeing the difference this way I wouldn't have noticed it as different from a little depression and a phsyiological "down". Without it coming back piece by piece it's difficult to distinguish the pieces because they are all so similar.
  12. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Hi Freddd, I would have expected to get very sick because I am so mercury poisoned and so unable to chelate mercury that when I tried two DMSA pills at 50 mg each in a given week 15 or more years ago I got kidney aches that lasted for months and was no longer able to tolerate mega Vitamin C in my IV's (which were probably recycling glutathione and helping me in all kinds of ways). I had to reduce my ascorbic acid from 25 cc to 6-8 cc to tolerate it and have never gone back up. There was a noticeable dip in my health at that time particularly gums and teeth.

    Thus if ALA were effectively chelating mercury from my brain I'm certain I would have gotten ill.

    Then again I think Cutler is off base in many ways...
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    I see said the blind man and picked up his hammer and saw. I find your underlying assumptions to be quite different from mine, as I think you see. Your comments appear to be written for people who will have the "I see" response because of a familiarity on their part with the underlying assumptions. I'm asking questions because I don't have that "I see" response and I really am trying to understand.

    I went and read up on DMSA. Do you have kidney problems or any reason to think that you do?

    Alpha Lipoic Acid was mentioned as an adjunct to DMSA as the item actually responsible from pulling mercury from the brain but not for excreting it.

    Just as a matter of expectation, I would have expected to feel better if mercury were extracted from my brain for the previously mentioned reasons of mercury deactivating the methylb12 that makes it to the brain and causing a multitude of neurological problems. I don't know that any of this is like that, just my expectations. I have no particular experience with mercury of which I'm aware or expertise on mercury.

    What makes you think that you don't excrete mercury in the normal manner?

    On the ascorbic acid, 1 cc translates to how many mg?

    I haven't read any Cutler so I have no idea at all about him and his opinions.

    As regards gums and teeth, I had years of problems and the worse the b12 deficiency got the worse my oral problems got. That changed entirely shortly after starting the mb12.
  14. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    No chelator is perfect. It pulls metals out and then lets some of them go. Thus you get redistribution. Mercury has an affinity for the kidneys among other organs especially if you just pulled it out (DMSA) and then redistributed and the body is trying to excrete it. So it affected my kidneys. I also got a flareup of yeast problems, overall body itchiness, and anxiety at the time, which passed fairly quickly.

    25 cc was 12.5 grams IV, and 8 cc is 4 grams IV.
  15. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    I see another question about my excretion of mercury. Don't want to get into all that Freddd...or start discussing myself in great detail...we are all different and I have my own history with which I am pretty familiar.
  16. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    why glutathionine causes nauesa

    Fredd,
    I would be greatful if you can you understand why I cant tolerate glutathionine MAX GXL.I would desperately like to understand yours posts better ...cant say its mind fog but senior years setting in. All vitamins drugs give me horrendous nausea and burping now for 3yrs. Went on potent glutathione for 6mths steadily got worse and totally collapsed recently, nausea worse than ever. Now stopped it feeling much better and nausea 3mths later in short bursts 2 x week only

    Started homepath detox plus a green drink with coconut juice...tolerating ok. Very low homocysteine levels...tolerate TMG for anxiety depression....homo low before TMG Like to do this b12 stuff if I can very gradually. Maybe I just cant detox. Any thoughts why this nausea?

    Thank you
    Susan
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Susan,

    Yes, MaxGXL, I'm familiar with it and even tried it. From it's effect I would say that it does indeed efficiently convert the precursers it contains to glutathione in your body. I took the same precursors as separates.

    If it affected you the way it affected me, nausea would be one of many symptoms one could expect. That is one of the many symptoms of folate deficiency and of methylb12 deficiency. You stayed on it for 6 months and I was a wreck in 6 weeks but I was starting from a mostly healed position. Having been through this myself now and observed others have similar reactions my thoughts on this are that methylfolate, methylb12 and adenosylb12 along with some important basics are the place to start. Because of the extent of deficiency after six months plus whatever you had before I would suggest a titration so that it doesn't hit too hard. The brands of methylb12 and adenosylb12 are important to be sure of effectiveness as only 20% of the brands tested were of that degree of effectiveness. The mind fog is quite probably a symptom of the combined deficiencies as that is quite characteristic of them. At this point because of how seriously deficient you appear I would think a local supplier if possible for your first set or pay for the DHL or UPS 2-3 day delivery from iherb. If you ordered tomorrow or Monday you could have it Wednesday or Thursday. These things can act very quickly, likely as fast as you can tolerate. The methylfolate starts taking effect about 3 hours after you take it with food, the mb12 and adb12 can start in 5 to 10 minutes as a sublingual. I had nausea for years from these deficiencies. It cleared up in the first few days. If you started with a quarter of a tablet of the methylfolate each time you ate, and crumbs of an mb12 tablet under your lip, adding another crumb as each dissolves as long as you are comfortable doing so would be a good start. The B-Right is a mid potency B-complex with microencapsulated inositol to be easy on the stomach and avoid "b-burps". I had a real tender stomach and had a lot of trouble with b-burps from most brands but not this one.

    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?p=4203#post4203

    If you go to this thread on these forums it has information about ordering from Australia and you might ask some of the others there about local suppliers they may have found. So if you have questions about ordering for things shipped to Australia let's do it there so as to collect all the appropriate info where it is easy to find. I found that the glutathione "detox" symptoms to be identical with methylfolate and methylb12 and adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms and that they responded quickly and favorably to said vitamins. Good luck and be sure to ask any questiuons that you need or want.
  18. Cece

    Cece

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    Susan,

    You said you had low homocysteine. You might want to investigate CBS upregulation. www.heartfixer.com has easy to understand info about the genetic defects that alot of us have. Click on the top link...Comprehensive Heart Care. Then click Methyl Cycle Genomics.

    I too have low normal homocysteine and have the CBS upregulation. It can cause some of they symptoms you are speaking about. Even the wrong foods can make you fell ill if you have this defect.

    I think this would be worth investigating, you never know if it could help.

    Deb
  19. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

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  20. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    Deb,
    thanks a lot for this...had quick glance ...seems to answer some ?s

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