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Glutathione Precursor Cross Comparison

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by pgoody, May 10, 2013.

  1. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I know that sounds sensible ...

    but my body is not made of laboratory conditions nor does it live in a laboratory.

    Start with a single supplement...

    record results..

    oh but that supplement throws one or multiple other reactions out of balance.

    Is this a bad reaction...?


    Do i stop the supplement or add in another to balace tbe first out.


    So now on two supplements...

    record results...

    whilst the actual M.E. is fluctuating plus real life factors are fluctuating.


    Plus initial supplements first OK can become very problematic at any unknown point...

    delayed toxicity.... is a real factor for M.E.

    Or it could be a good detox reaction, its really difficult.

    Unless its something really obvious eg. took pill felt better for four hours and this is repeatable day in day out...

    its just not an option for me.

    Plus some supplements need months to give them a proper chance.

    I did have a peculiar reaction after trying co q10 -( something else a blood test said i was low in)

    it had 100mg MCT in in a base of spirulina, alfalfa, ...

    I didnt like it. I felt like it messed with my brain. My dog accidentally knocked the bottle off the counter and all pills were ruined. I have no money to replace as of yet.
    lef07003 and Little Bluestem like this.
  2. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Thanks Lotus,

    At a guess it was a strong detox reaction... I am confident in the pills at present... but in general am having a difficult time getting to grips with The Supplement World.

    I am glad Rich found it complicated too!

    I worry that my body is doing stuff for very good reason and I am tinkering with it when I have no real clue :(
    Lotus97 likes this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I know many people here are avoiding dairy, but non/undenatured whey protein is another option. It seems it would carry the same risks as NAC/cysteine in regards to mercury. The whey (and NAC/cysteine) could also cause issues for those with CBS. The lactoferrin in whey is a prebiotic, has antibacterial/antifungal/antimicrobial properties, binds to iron so candida, Lyme, and other pathogens can't feed on it, and is also supposed to inhibit biofilms. This is what Rich said about ImmunoPro (a type of non/undenatured whey protein) back in December 2011.
    Jarod likes this.
  4. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The other day Jarod posted an article about how Lyme/borrelia uses manganese. I sort of skimmed over it and it mentioned iron so I assumed that it was saying used iron or manganese, but I'm glad you mentioned this because I reread the article he posted and it just says the Bb uses manganese (unlike other pathogens who use iron).
    brenda likes this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is from that article Hip linked to earlier. It seems there is another reason not to use cysteine if you have mercury toxicity. He doesn't mention it, but I'm assuming the same rules would apply to NAC and whey (?)
  7. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Yes, I did. The glutathione capsules I took had no effect.

    The whey protein was Immunopro. That was around the time Cheney was using it on his patients.

    My ME symptoms are pretty stable (in a bad sort of way) and it's usually easy to tell if a drug or a supplementing is helping me. I keep a daily journal if I am trying a new one and try to last at least 3 months before I make a decision, unless the effects are so severe that I cannot continue.
    pgoody likes this.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is from Rich about glutathione and B12 (he's not talking about supplemental glutathione)
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus.

    That's interesting because according to Rich, glutathione protects B12

    Unfortunately he got this very wrong. After glutathione combines with b12 it is excreted by the kidneys very rapidly. It protects b12 the same way cyanide protects b12, from reacting with anything else until it is rapidly excreted. This can be easily demonstrated. Anybody taking injections of MeCbl above 1mg can compare visible excretion of b12 in the urine. Glutathione or certain precursors will demonstrate the massively increased excretion of b12 in the urine followed up over several hours to days of massive folate deficiency symptoms via methyltrap. If a person follows the directions anybody can demonstrate this for themselves if they can see the coloration in urine as well as the rapid increase of the following symptoms.


    Group 2a -

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b –

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.
    Nobody has to go on anybody's belief systems or hypotheses or theories or "supposed to" or any variation thereof. There is a way to demonstrate it. I don't know who or what percentage of people have a problem. The best predictor of having problems with glutathione is to have a response to MeCbl and/or AdoCbl and healed to some degree and then watch a few weeks of glutathione precursor use destroy 3 years of healing progress, starting with severe and worsening folate deficiency symptoms followed by worsening MeCbl deficiency symptoms followed by worsening AdoCbl deficiency symptoms. Of the N=10 trial of glutathione and various precursors, all of whom had substantial healing with active b12/folate, 100%, all 10, demonstrated drastic setbacks and reversal of healing plunging every person into a severe triple deficiency that needed substantially increased doses to reverse.


    It cost ME several years of CNS healing and threw the symptoms of SubAcute Combined degeneration back 3 years of progress that has never been entirely regained. Glutathione damaged my Central Nervous System unlike anything else has ever done extremely rapidly. Taking glutathione/NAC is like playing Russian Roulette, you could damage your brain and the rest of your nervous system. It is entirely too dangerous to take. The only reason it isn't recognized is because of 70 years of faulty research on b12 and folates.
  10. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    I used to do really well with NAC and freddd's protocol. I was actually taking 2400 mg NAC daily. I was also taking a bunch of ALA and Carnitine.

    Somewhere along the way something went sideways...Long story. Maybe a chelator or stomach infection...Not sure, it seemed like a stomach infection by the sudden onset.

    Bottom line, the NAC used to work great with freddds protocol for me.

    Now when I take NAC I get stomach pain, and brain frog......However, if I had the gut for it, I would definitely want to take it again.

    On the other hand, the whey, and glutathione responded very negatively in my situation. Got nerve pain pretty quickly I believe.

    I think NAC might be a critical missing component in my particular situation, but that is based purely on intuition and how my body responded to it and the ALA combined for about a year....

    I'm not sure the ALA is required, it might have been the carnitine that was mixed with the vitacost supplement that made it work so well. The NAC did work by itself I believe also, but not the same as with the carnitine ALA supplement.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jarod,

    NAC is not a 1:1 replacement for glutathione. Sometimes NAC gives the same reaction as glutathione and sometimes it doesn't. I'm would suppose that NAC gives that same response only when enough of a suitable co-precursor to trigger excessive amounts of glutathione. If it affected you with "NAC detox" then you would have had many of the symptoms in my earlier post. I know what you mean about sometimes things just go sideways for suspected or unsuspected reasons.
    Jarod likes this.
  12. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    It's possible that you're short on glycine now, which is the third amino acid that combines with cysteine and glutamate to form glutathione. At any rate, some people seem to be low in both, and maybe you've ended up in that pot :p
  13. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    I'm running in to some interesting stuff to do with thiol in food or supplements or sulfate in my particular situation. The sulfate stuff sounds like a direction I'd like to explore. I need to re-read this stuff about 4 times first I think.

    I need about a week or two and maybe I'll be able to provide some meaningful clues. :balloons:

    thanks!
    Valentijn likes this.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I posted earlier in this thread about glutathione made up of glycine, cysteine, glutamate. Therefore, L-cysteine or NAC (possibly also combined with glycine) could reduce glutamate induced excitotoxicity. It seems Rich is saying that L-cystine (not L-cysteine or NAC) might actually be better. I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried this, but this is his explanation for why it could work:
    (note: L-cysteine, L-cystine, and NAC could cause problems for people with mercury toxicity)
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  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is the cheapest place I found for L-cystine. It looks like they also have free shipping when you buy that brand.
    http://www.thenaturalonline.com/dou...apsules.html?gclid=CP3lqKf9qrcCFUKd4Aod1DgAbQ

    While it's true that L-cystine is cheaper than acetyl l glutathione and liposomal glutathione, Vitacost sells reduced glutathione for around the same price as the L cystine. And NAC is even cheaper. I think Swanson might have a better price on NAC, but I'm not sure. They had a buy one get one free sale on NAC a couple months ago so I bought a few bottles.
    Valentijn likes this.
  16. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Found a couple interesting clips that help explain cysteine and how it makes it from the "stomach epithelial lining cells" to the "neuronal cells".

    It involves something called an "EAAT3 transporter". This transporter is what allows cysteine to move where it can help supply cysteine for methylation.

    To help understand the function of the EAAT3 transporter please view the Dr Deth Redox/Methylation in Brain video at 32:50.

    Dr Deth goes on to say that Casein, gluten, and moraphine can all inhibit function on the EAAT3 transporter which prevents the cysteine from getting where it needs to go.

    1) The infections can impair the absorption too. That may explain why I tolerated NAC better while on ABX? .

    On another note....Yasko talking about "maintaining sulfur in the complex form"? Is that glutathione? HERE (at 24 minutes)
    Lotus97 likes this.
  17. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Good slides from:

    Dr Deth: Redox Methylation in the Gut, Brain, and Immune System power point presentation.


    Check out the path of Cysteine, and Cystine.


    You can see EAAT3 also.


    GI_Tract_cysteine.jpg braincellercysteine.jpg
    Valentijn likes this.
  18. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Freddd's viewpoint is not conjecture - NAC made him lose all th eprogress he'd made for a year during which his symptoms regressed significantly. He is not the only one by far who warns against NAC -- ALL the doctors who work with autistics warn that autistics often have a problem with NAC.

    I am afraid to try it myself but I was already using Life Extension's curciferous veggie product and milk thistle with no problem and surely these both contain cysteine, so I get cysteine safely in these forms.
  19. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I have often thought I should do this. In the past it would not have helped because of my cycles - I would be a totally different person from one day to the next -- for instance, one day susceptible to MSGtoxicity, the next not (I was crying inside many times for sheer frustration of never knowing what each day would bring).

    Do you have a form you use to determine how you feel to put it into perspective with every other day? I have thought I should make a form where I can just check thinsg off or rate things on some scale...but it would have to list a boatload of symtoms so I could check yes/no if I had them that day.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Most people don't have a bad reaction to NAC. Ergo anecdotal evidence and conjecture.
    You also get cysteine if you eat any protein source. And if you're doing methylation you're increasing cysteine.
    Valentijn likes this.

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