New Atmosphere, New Vision: Gibson and Whittemore Kick Off Invest in ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry reports on Dr. Gibson's introduction and Dr. Whittemore's keynote speech, at the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London.
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glutathione instead methilation protocol ?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by daniariete2000, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000 Senior Member

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    In the Rich semplified protocol, methilation is used to boost reduced glutathione. But I didn't understand why is not possible to use an absorbable form of guthatione instead increase methilation ?
    There are some forms of glutathione stabilized with vit c that increase really the serum ratio of reduced glutathione/oxidazed glutathione. I tried on my body.
    I really would like to know if Rich discussed about this

    Thanks

    Daniele
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Daniele,

    Rich felt that if you tried supplementing with glutathione (and he worked with this for a while) you could indeed raise your levels, but you would not correct the basic problem and would have to supplement glutathione for ever.

    Whereas, if you correct the reason that you have low, glutathione, you restore methylation (and its many functions in the body) and you will make your own glutathione.

    In some cases he found that supplementing with glutathione while also doing methylation therapy, made the process easier.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
     
  3. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000 Senior Member

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    Yes, but Rich answered me that in his opinion also methilation supports should be taken (at low dose) forever to avoid relaps so...maybe the same problem ??
     
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Unless we correct all the underlying problems, then, theoretically, methylation will not be blocked.

    But by dealing with methylation itself, you will be dealing with much more than low glutathione.

    Sushi
     
  5. Shannon

    Shannon

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    Ive been struggling with this.. been on glutathione & ATP injections daily for a few months and it has worked miracles..now that im introducing MethylB12 I planned on cutting it out, but im still taking it on the days I dont to the B12 shots..I dont know if im causing my body to over detox (assumed taking glut for that long would have already started the process)..
    The Glut. helps so much and im struggling to find a proper methylB12 protocol that im starting to think taking it daily for life will be better..wont you have to still supplement with B12 for life instead?...is it possible taking glutathione injections for life can help you still and be effective...I dont expect for anything to cure me, ive been ill for too long,..I just dong t know what to expect with B12 and really want to know what you guys think about glutathione being just as effective long term in helping symptoms??
     
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Glutathione injections are good for boosting levels in the liver and kidney. But for it to enter the cell your body disassembles it into glutamate + cysteine + glycine (basic amino acids). If you have an ATP block this can be bad because you can't reassemble inside the cell on the fly. If you have ATP then great.

    If people have CBS mutation and are already swimming in cysteine, the extra load can imbalance the trans-sulfuration pathway leading to sulfite and other problems.

    If you have issues with high glutamate and NMDA receptor activation this can REALLY be bad. Three months of glutathione IVs damn near killed me (I am only slightly over-exaggerating) since I had an ATP block and have issues with both glutamate and cysteine (my UAA levels were already sky high in both).

    Rich Vank is the one who advised me that is was an ATP block and got me off the IVs otherwise I shudder what would have happened (several trips to the hospital was enough for me).

    I think glutathione is great for people who have a reasonable Krebs cycle, but are under huge tox stress from one or more sources and their liver and kidneys are overloaded. Then sure. Otherwise you are better off getting the methylation and Krebs cycles up and working. Methylation is WAY, WAY more than just glutathione. It directly affects gene expression for pete's sake.
     
    Sushi likes this.
  7. Shannon

    Shannon

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    So although the glutathione and ATP has almost cured my fatigue..is it possible starting a methylation cycle instead will benefit and possibly improve a lot of my other daily symptoms...not just fatigue??
    (I suffer from 24/7 nausea, joint and muscle pain, muscle spasms and nerve pain, migraines, anxiety, insomnia, diziness, fayigue, hand tremors, high heart rate and some more but those are the most debilitating)
     
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As dbkita mentioned above, methylation does promise to do more than just raise glutathione and ATP. Keep in mind though some of the start-up symptoms of methylation can actually increase anxiety, insomnia, and high heart rate.
     
  9. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    "Ive been struggling with this.. been on glutathione & ATP injections daily for a few months and it has worked miracles..now that im introducing MethylB12 I planned on cutting it out, but im still taking it on the days I dont to the B12 shots..I dont know if im causing my body to over detox (assumed taking glut for that long would have already started the process).."

    Where do you get the glutathione & ATP injections? Are there supplements that are effective, or do these have to be injected? I would like to try glutathione, but have heard that it has to be used IV to be effective.
     
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    There are different type of Glutathione supplements and some people get benefit from them. The most common is reduced Glutathione taken orally with a capsule or tablet. The problem with this is that the absorption rate is relatively low. There is also reduced glutathione lotions/transdermal creams. If you do try that, under the armpits is the best place to use it since the skin is thinner there so it's better absorbed. There are reduced glutathione sublinguals. Source Naturals' is the only one I've seen that is reasonably priced. Theirs also has molybdenum and B2 which are cofactors for Glutathione production. Other oral methods of glutathione promise to be more effective. These are liposomal or lipoceutical glutathione and acetyl glutathione. There are other threads discussing these last two.

    Aside from taking Glutathione directly, there are many supplements to increase Glutathione and ATP which might be more effective especially if combined with taking glutathione directly. As dbkita mentioned, increasing ATP can also help increase Glutathione. Supplements useful for boosting ATP and Glutathione include NAC/L-Cysteine, B2, Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA)/R-Lipoic Acid, L-Carnitine Fumarate, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Coenzyme Q10/Ubiquinol, Magnesium, Malic Acid, Magnesium Malate, Creatine, Citrulline Malate, Milk Thistle, Molybdenum, Selenium, Methionine, TMG, SAMe, Vitamin C, Fisetin, D-Ribose
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As I mentioned in my previous post there are other methods of boosting Glutathione in addition or instead of taking it directly, but here is what Rich says specifically about Glutathione and Methylation
    I encouraged people to boost gltutathione directly from about 1999 through 2004. It gave temporary help to some, but was not a permanent way to raise glutathione. In late 2004 I read the work of S.Jill James et al. in autism. They found that glutathione was also low in autism, but that it could be raised by lifting the partial methylation cycle block that is upstream of glutathione synthesis in the sulfur metabolism. I encouraged people with ME/CFS to try this, since the biochemistry in autism and ME/CFS are quite similar. It turned out to work for most people who tried it. The simplified methylation protocol is designed to lift this partial block.

    Since this treatment seems to lower glutathione initially, and this is likely responsible for the excitotoxicity that many people experience initially on this protocol, more recently I have suggested adding something to support glutathione initially, either liposomal glutathione or acetylglutathione. I've also suggested trying L-cystine (not to be confused with L-cysteine) to suppport glutathione in the brain. This should not be done if a high body burden of mercury is suspected, since it may move mercury into the brain. I haven't received much feedback on these approaches yet.

    There are other things that people have taken to lower excitotoxicity. They have included GABA, theanine, magnesium, taurine, progesterone cream, valerian, grape seed extract, and pycnogenol. Some people report that one or another of these has helped them.

    For a more permanent raising of glutathione, the only thing I have found is to lift the partial methylation cycle block, and the best way to do that is with a methylation protocol, which includes at a minimum a relatively high dosage of B12, by injection or sublingually, together with supplementing an active form of folate (methylfolate or folinic acid, with methylfolate being more effective).

    If a person gets B12 alone, I think that they get the benefit of improving the function of the methylmalonate pathway, which feeds more fuel to the mitochondria, producing more ATP and hence more energy to drive the muscles. However, without adding the folate to it, the person does not lift the partial methylation cycle block and does not get the permanent improvement in glutathione level, which gives the longterm improvement in mito function and thus in ATP production and energy.
     
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    After making a recovery and then suffering a relapse, I think there are other factors that are more significant than supplements. I'm not saying supplements aren't helpful, but they're only one piece of the puzzle.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I came across a quote by Dr. Neil Nathan. I was wondering if there's any truth to this:

    Q: If the problem is low glutathione in ME/CFS, why not just take that?
    A: Also a good question, and an important one. Many practitioners don't agree on this. From my perspective, if you give glutathione (which often helps, by the way), that sends a message to the body that it doesn't need any more, and it stops making it. It makes more sense to me to give the body the raw materials it needs to stimulate it to make more glutathione, and our research indicates that this approach works.
     
  14. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I was one of the people that Rich tried to help raise Glutathion levels back in that 1999 - 2004 period. Problem was that none of the things we tried (like the Whey protein, the Glut precursor type supplements, the oral Glutatione) worked and for me they made my ME viral and other symptoms worse.

    He then started thinking along the lines of what could be causing these problems.
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    A common problem I'm hearing with methylation is that some people start out at too high of a dose and this discourages from continuing a methylation protocol.
     

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