New Atmosphere, New Vision: Gibson and Whittemore Kick Off Invest in ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry reports on Dr. Gibson's introduction and Dr. Whittemore's keynote speech, at the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London.
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Glutathione and sleep

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by Dakini, Feb 11, 2015.

  1. Dakini

    Dakini

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    Hi there

    I have been struggling with my sleeping patterns.

    About 18 months ago I was diagnosed with the A1298C homozygous SNP (and Pyrroles). I’ve had CFS in varying degree’s since 1988.

    A few months after starting on B12 I found I had massive insomnia. I have been working with a biomed and we tried a few things which didn’t work – until I came across a post on this forum by Rich Vank, where he suggested glutathione might help with this type of insomnia (caused by the B12).

    I tried taking both glutathione and NAC. This worked fabulously for about 6 months until about August this year. I became very unwell with a virus (suspected swine flu). During this time my supplement intake was really all over the place. After about a week I felt better and started taking my supplements with more discipline. Within a few days I started to need to sleep all the time – like all day. I found felt better when I reduced the glutathione and NAC intake. Eventually I stopped taking it all together – and felt reasonably good for a few months until my insomnia returned in December.

    I tried to take the glutathione and NAC again, but each time I try it I get very sleepy – like I just sleep all day and all night. I’ve tried them both separately, and in small quantities. I sort of figured that maybe I could take something like half or a quarter of a tablet every 2 or 3 days and get some sort of balance. But so far, no luck. No matter what I try I end up getting overly sleepy. But then when I just don’t take it I will suddenly get intense insomnia.

    I’ve tried other things herbal, GABA and melatonin but they’re not right either for various reasons.

    I’ve searched these forums and someone else mentioned that they felt very sleepy and it was suggested they take a glutathione recycler. I didn’t know what this is but now I’ve learnt that NAC is a glutathione recycler – so am very confused.

    I want to know what other peoples experiences are with glutathione and sleep. Has anyone had this sort of problem before.

    Thanks a million

    Kylie
     
    Wayne likes this.
  2. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    I find that 200 or at most 300 mg of NAC makes me sleep deeply and well. I take it in the evening but it can be a few hours before bed. I also take low doses of two other things for sleep and pain. I don't use it every night. If I go without for while, my sleep gets worse on the other meds. I haven't taken it every night because I heard it could be counterproductive. I know the NAC increases my low blood pressure problem in the morning. One thing I haven't used at all is plain glutathione as I heard that would have some adverse consequences.

    I can't help with real knowledge, but what about dropping the glutathione and just taking NAC in some small amount? Maybe every other day or less, in a rotation with other type of sleep remedies or meds--
    Can't help further other than to direct you t o the other sleep threads.
     
  3. TheWig

    TheWig

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    Glutathione is a tricky supplement, at least to supplement it correctly.
    Right now I take a GSH complex containing L-glutathione, NAC, B12 (methylcobalamin), Folate (5-mthf), ALA, ALC, Milk thistle, Selenium and a few other vitamins.
    At first I noticed I felt a bit bogged down, almost felt like I was coming down with the flu. Once I was about 2 weeks into the program I felt much better. After looking into a bit, if you are taking a robust glutathione enhancing supplement, you should expect to detox. This will manifest flu like symptoms, cause tiredness and even blemishes.
    It seems odd that you experienced symptoms like this after 6 months, but it could still just be your body detoxing.
    I also talked with the company that made my supplement, and from what they say, it seems very important to not just supplement with glutathione, but with the precursors and methyl donors as well.
    All I can say from my experience, is after the first bout of detoxing, I have slept better, have more energy and plan on sticking to it. Hope this helps some, if you have any questions I will do my best to help you out further.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  4. Dakini

    Dakini

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    Thank you very much for your replies. I really appreciate it. And I have to say that it’s also such a relief to be able to say 'NAC' and 'glutathione' and have people know what you mean (and, I’m presuming, not having eyes glaze over).

    I do feel like I have the flu big time when I take it, so maybe my body is still detoxing.

    Yes – I’ve already dropped the glutathione... thanks.

    I’ll also reduce the NAC. I thought I was taking a low amount – 1 capsule occasionally (when the recommended on the bottle is 3 per day. But the 1 capsule is 400 mgs so that’s still double what you’re taking, Sing. I’ll try taking half again and see what happens.

    That’s a good idea to talk to the company who makes the supplement, TheWig. I might do that too. I’m also interested in the GSH complex too. I like the idea of taking a broader spectrum of things, although am wary of taking anything with folate in it as it can make me unwell (possible COMT SNP). Maybe a little bit will be OK or I can find something similar without.

    This makes me think that I may not be getting enough methyl groups for it to work optimally (as suggested by the supplement company).

    This has given me a lot to work with – thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

    Kylie
     
  5. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Hi to TheWig, I am interested in your experience--that you felt a lot better after a couple of weeks and felt you had been detoxing before. The supplement you describe has a lot in common with the formula that Dr. Jon Kaiser of KPAX Pharm in San Francisco has been testing on ME/CFS patients. I wrote about his presentation at the Nova patient conference last Saturday. I personally wouldn't take as much as he has in the KPAX formula--there is a lot more NAC in it, for instance, than I am taking now. Dr. Sara Myhill has a program too to help the mitochondrial status, but I don't want to try to replicate a complicated program on my own. Anyway, I am glad you are feeling better and have found something that works for you!

    And Kylie, good luck with your experimentation!
     
  6. TheWig

    TheWig

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    I will have to check out that formula by Dr Kaiser.
    The one I am taking is called GSH Gold, it is quite new from what I gather. The customer service is fantastic though, very helpful, unlike a few others I have been in contact with over the years.
     
  7. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    @Sing I've been trying to figure out why I'm so sleepy on the KPAX Immune and not the Energy formula. You may have provided the answer!!
    I bought the KPAX fatigue trial kit on-line a few months ago but am still on low doses. I found that the Immune formula (1/2 tablet) gave me heartburn and I would get so EXHAUSTED within an hour or 2 of taking it. I was not taking the Energy formula at the time because I was nervous about the addition of caffeine to the formula.
    When I spoke to the KPAX rep, she didn't know why I'd be tired but suggested taking the Energy instead b/c the caffeine will act as a 'transporter' to get the nutrients into the mitochondria and that most likely, I will not feel stimulated by the low dose caffeine and that in fact it may prove to be even more beneficial than the Immune tablet.

    Since that time I've taken 1/2 Energy tablet in morning and another 1/2 Energy tablet in the afternoon without any problems regarding heartburn or sleepiness. Then today, thinking that maybe the sleepiness thing had been all in my head or due to something else, I took 1/2 Immune tablet in hopes of getting a larger amount of nutrients into me (Immune is more potent in vitamins, not sure though if the amino acid concentration is also increased?)
    About an hour after the 1/2 Immune tablet, I was super tired. And I was fighting heartburn. So I don't believe this is a co-incidence and am wondering what's going on!! The nutrients and their amounts are listed on the bottles except when it comes to the amino acids, NAC being one of them. They are named but the amounts are not given. They are listed as a 'Proprietary blend of Energy and Immune Boosting Nutrients"

    Do you know how much NAC is in the Kpax Immune and also in the KPAX Energy? Or can you think of another reason the Immune tablet would make me so sleepy??

    Thanks :)
     
  8. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    @charlie1 - Foods I'm intolerant of will often make me feel that sort of fatigue an hour or so after eating them. There might be something in the ingredients which you react to.
     
  9. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    Thank-you for the suggestion which would make sense but I pretty well eat the same breakfast foods each day so I don't think it's that.
     
  10. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    @charlie1 I have forgotten how much NAC is in KPAX, due to forgetting problem, but may have noted it in another post somewhere. My vague sense is that it is considerably higher than I can tolerate. Not only do I fall deeply asleep on even 300 mg NAC but I also feel the effects the next day. In my case that means extra low blood pressure in the morning, maybe until mid afternoon. This is worth it to me to get the deep sleep which I feel restored by. It doesn't cause more brain fog, interestingly, the next day, just disablingly low blood pressure.

    Your body is the expert. If something makes you too tired during the day, don't take it, would be my advice. If it were me, I would only take that pill before bedtime, then see how I do. If the other formula sits well with your body during the day, then just take that.

    By the way, has their research project been completed? Are Kpax's results somewhere? I had sent them an email months ago to be notified when their study results are in, but never heard from them.

    Thanks,

    Sing
     
  11. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    @Sing - I also replied to the email they sent out by saying I'd like to receive the results when they're released. I've heard nothing yet either.
    Ya, I won't take it in the day anymore but will try it at night. The thing is they suggest not taking it after 3pm as it can keep people awake at night! I'll experiment with that on a night that I'm not already sleep deprived in case the experiment backfires.
    I thought you might know the actual amounts of each of the 3 amino acids that are supplied in the KPAX formulas but that's ok. I can always ask one of the reps....they're very helpful.
     
  12. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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  13. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    Sure! But do you mean about my experimenting with the KPAX ENERGY/IMMUNE formulations or do you mean reporting back with the Synergy Trial Results re: KPAX? :)
     
  14. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    @Sing I received my first Synergy Report Update as an attachment to an email this morning. Did you also get one? It's called "Synergy Report Update #4" yet its the first one I've received. I won't have a chance to read it till later.
    If you've rec'd yours, let me know what you think and we can compare thoughts.
     
  15. MarkO

    MarkO

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    Interesting thread. I've had some health issues and discovered some higher than usual levels of toxic metals in a urine test (nothing crazy, but should be lower). I'd previously had a boost in energy from adding one particular type of magnesium - Drs Best - but now that I look at the ingredients list, for every 100mg of magnesium there's 900mg of glycine and lysine 'chelate'. And glycine is one of the three components of glutathione. So perhaps the benefit is coming from additional glutathione synthesis and the detox process...

    ...so for the last week I've been taking 600mg NAC (one of the other precursors to glutathione) morning and night, and for the first two days I felt great, and urine was much darker and stronger smelling (sorry for the detail but thought it would be relevantly!) so looks like something was being flushed out. But since then I've been gradually more tired by the day. Sounds like a similar experience. I'm going to give the NAC a pause and see if that makes a difference.

    I wonder if it's something that's useful on occasion, or in cycles, or just at a lower dose?
     

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