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Glutathione Administration

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by slayadragon, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    A long time ago, Rich wrote a post commenting on different ways of administering glutathione and the likely benefits that they would have.

    Nebulized glutathione likely would have different benefits than IV glutathione, for instance.

    Recently I've been trying a couple of ways of administering glutathione that seem to me to feel much better than any other method I've tried. So I thought I'd ask for comments.

    The first is administered rectally (using lipoceutical glutathione). At first, I was adding it to the coffee enemas that I've been doing to help with the intensive detox I've been doing. Then I decided to use a syringe (no needle!) to administer it afterwards.

    This feels like a good thing in general. Coffee enemas in general have a clarifying effect, and the glutathione seems to add to that.

    The second way is in my neural therapy shots. I've been using a mixture of glutathione (from a syringe bottle, meant for administration either through shots or nebulized) and procaine.

    This isn't really something I'd encourage other people to do, if for no other reason than that it's made a few rather dramatic bruises. And I don't know anyone else who's doing their own neural therapy injections anyway.

    But the glutathione/procaine mixture inserted into the trigger points seemed to do something profound to me. I only did it a few times, but it almost seems to me to have been a turning point between being stuck in permanent "broken" mode and moving toward wellness (with a finite amount of detox being the main remaining problem).

    Does it make sense that shooting glutathione into the trigger points/fascia would be of particular help? Why might that be?

    Has anyone else ever tried administering glutathione rectally?

    Thanks for your help.

    Best, Lisa
  2. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Lisa,

    I've long considered trying nebulized glutathione as I'd heard reports of others getting good results from using it. I'm not familiar with rectal administration, so I'm intrigued with this concept. I'm also most interested in your experience with injecting glutathione in neural therapy points. Since I don't have any experience with either of these however, I don't feel I have any insights to offer.

    I am curious about some things however. I seem to remember that when you started on the methylation supplements a couple years ago or so, it raised your glutathione levels so quickly that it resulted in you experiencing some pretty serious reactions. I'm wondering if you eventually adjusted to this increase, but then felt you needed to raise your levels even more. Or have you now substituted direct glutathione administration for the methylation supplements? Or are you doing both?

    Regarding coffee enemas (CEs), in my research, I've read that CEs raise glutathione levels as well. So I find it intriguing that you are using both CEs and direct glutathione administration. I can very much relate to the "clarifying effect" you mention. I generally wake up every morning with a "pressure headache" and a feeling of oppressive stagnation in my body. CEs are almost miraculous in the way they pull me out of these symptoms.

    CEs are touted for their ability to detoxify the liver and gall bladder, but I've come to feel/believe that it's CEs ability to raise glutathione levels that shifts things so dramatically for me. So your mention of rectal glutathione administration would be something I would like to research and get more information on. Anything you could provide would be appreciated.

    This sounds pretty amazing Lisa. It's actually the kind of breakthrough I often envision for myself, but I generally feel like I stumble along trying to figure out how to best achieve it. I often think it will end up involving some pretty intensive, specialized acupuncture, focused on my head and neck areas. But I digress.

    It makes a lot of sense to me. Although I have only very limited and unsuccessful experience with NT, the concept of it is similar to the way I view my experience with Biocircuits. I won't go into a detailed description, but if you click on the link, it should give you a pretty quick and succinct overview.

    Thanks much for sharing your experiences. I tend to listen to people who are getting remarkable results from the therapies and strategies they try! :Retro smile:

    Best Regards, Wayne
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lisa.

    Over the past few years, occasionally someone has mentioned using glutathione suppositories. One of the suppliers has been the Hopewell Pharmacy in New Jersey. This used to come up in the CFSFMExperimental group
    from time to time. As I recall, the reports were positive.

    Rich
  4. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Hi Wayne,

    When I started Rich's supplements, I still was living in the moldy house. That's when I got the reaction that put me into the "adverse events" section of Rich's paper. I now think it's a mistake for people to push detox in any way when they're in a bad environment. Trying to release toxins at the same time that one is immersed in toxins puts too much stress on the system.

    Since I moved out of the moldy house, I've been taking 5-MTHF and B12 continuously. (Those are the supplements that promote detox for me.) I think I've been getting mild amounts of detox through that channel all along. I've also taken boatloads of csm, which has prompted a lot of detox and (I think) kept toxins from being reabsorbed through the gut.

    For the first 2 1/2 years after moving out of the moldy house, a major stopping point (literally) in terms of detoxing was my fascia. It felt like the toxins (including dead viruses) were getting stuck in the trigger points. Eventually I started doing neural therapy to get things moving, and that helped a lot. But it was painful and laborious.

    The next part sounds like an ad. But when I went to visit StormySkye (another recovered CFSer) in Kansas, she insisted that I try a probiotic called ThreeLac. It was the thing that had prompted a real change for her. (She was already living in a really good house with really good outside air, with "stuff" that had finally down after a move from a bad place.) She said that it made all of her trigger point pain (which she'd had for 15+ years) go away permanently, and that it allowed her to more effectively get rid of toxins and pathogens. It took five days, she said.

    I'll try just about anything that a credible recovered CFSer says worked for them, so I bought some of this stuff. Within about a week, things seemed to be getting better. After about three weeks, I stopped thinking of trigger point/fascia issues as being a problem at all. I use neural therapy a bit now, but mostly on my scalp to reduce brain inflammation.

    I'd like to know why the Three Lac helped with the trigger point issue. It may be that it reduced inflammation.

    But this also may fit in with the idea of what causes the extracellular matrix to get all non-liquid and gummed up (a concept discussed in a reader friendly fibro book by Devin Starlanyl and unfriendly-but-brilliant MCS book by William Rea). Apparently more glutathione can keep this from happening, while more gliotoxin (made by yeast and aspergillus) can substitute for glutathione in the matrix and prevent it from remaining fluid. So perhaps my simultaneously taking the right probiotic (to reduce the gliotoxin) and shooting the matrix with glutathione repaired it.

    Rea says that once things get gummed up, it's very hard to go back. Starlanyl suggests that as well. So if I really did fix that problem with my tinkering (which I did before I knew the theory), that was really lucky!

    So now I've been pushing detox like mad. The main thing that's been doing it is high dose methyl B12. I've been doing 5-10 mg a few times a week. They started out really intense, but after about five weeks have started to be fairly tolerable. The addition of a whole lot of zinc and a whole lot of P-5-P (the people at Pfeiffer diagnosed me with KPU more than a decade ago.....I mostly ignored that until recently) may have helped.

    The coffee enemas mostly seem to be removing the guck that's coming out and keeping my gall bladder cleaned out. I think of it like a colonic, except cheaper and less trouble and (I think) more effective. The fact that the glutathione used rectally felt like a good thing to me is surprising, since I've never been a big fan of any sort of glutathione (even IV). But insofar as our guts are problems, it makes sense that targeting that area with glutathione might be helpful. I'm sort of surprised that I've not heard anyone else do it, now that I think about it. (One person on the Yasko list said she was putting it in her coffee enemas, so I can't take credit.)

    I've felt a lot better in general since I've been injecting all that methyl B12. I think it's been really important in terms of getting my system up and running, and in making me resilient against various forms of pollution/toxins (including to some extent mold/biotoxin exposures). But the first thing that happened when I pushed the B12 is that the toxins started flowing out. When they were getting stuck in the fascia, I couldn't do it too fast. Now, that's not an issue. (I'm pushing ALA too, 1200 mg a day, btw.)

    So I think I've figured out something that I wish I'd done earlier. If I'd addressed the fascia issue and then pushed detox hard in a good environment right after moving out of the moldy house, I might have made really fast and less painful progress. I doubt that this whole process could be done in less than a year even at its best, but that would be a lot better than three years or never.

    Hopefully people who try the things that I am later on will be able to be more efficient in doing it.

    Nice to hear from you!

    Best, Lisa
  5. Quilp

    Quilp Senior Member

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    I take Reduced L-Glutathione

    I first took it on the advice of Judy Mikovits, who said that our body's would benefit from Glutathione. I didn't delve into the reasons why, but I finally started taking it in June. I take six of these every day ( I get them from Prohealth ) and I have to say I feel much stronger, doing much more, recovering quicker.
    Instead of a relapse lasting months, they now last weeks.
    If Judy says take L-Glutathione, then that's good enough for me. I don't pretend to know how it works, but I would like to know more about how many PWME have been help by Glutathione and by how much. My only worry is that I'm taking too many. I take six of the tablets a day. Nothing, other than digestive enzymes have helped me more. These two tablets and a healthy diet have really helped me. I just wish I knew how and why.

    Kind regards, Mark
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    I first heard about glutathione depletion in CFS from Dr. Paul Cheney in 1999. I wrote a poster paper about glutathione in CFS in 2004, and it's available at www.cfsresearch.org by clicking on CFS/M.E. and then on my name. The paper discusses the many things that glutathione does in the body. The effects of glutathione depletion essentially are a roll call of the symptoms of CFS.

    I'm surprised that you are getting such good results from taking ordinary oral L-glutathione. The usual dogma is that since it is mostly broken down by enzymes in the gut, taking it this way benefits the gut but isn't very effective for raising glutathione systemically. Perhaps your large dosage is a factor. After all, even though it is mostly broken down in the gut, if the dosage is high, it should still deliver at least some of the constituent amino acids to the liver via the portal vein that carries nutrients derived from the gut to the liver, so that the liver could then reform some glutathione, which it will supply to the body in general via the circulating blood.

    The rate-limiting amino acid for the synthesis of glutathione is usually cysteine, and taking L-glutathione orally should supply some cysteine to the liver, which is the main producer of glutathione in the body.

    I might also point out that after encouraging PWCs to try building glutathione by various direct methods for about 5 years, I found that although this was helpful to many, it was not a permanent fix to the glutathione depletion in CFS. When the people stopped boosting glutathione, it dropped back down. It was only when I learned from the autism researcher Jill James that there is a problem upstream in the sulfur metabolism at the methylation cycle in autism that is associated with the depletion of glutathione downstream that I realized that the same thing was occurring in CFS, and I was then able to help people to lift their glutathione levels on a more permanent basis, by addressing the partial block in the methylation cycle. That's what the combination of B12 and folate is designed to do (together with some supporting nutrients as needed). This is also described on the website cited above. I discussed this with Judy when I first met her at the 2007 IACFS conference in Fort Lauderdale. She was one of the few people I encountered at the conference who even knew what methylation was.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  7. Quilp

    Quilp Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich I'm on the website as we speak.

    Thank you for your help, you are so passionate in what you believe that it effuses itself in every one of your posts.
    I have been ill since 1995, but if only i'd taken these supplements earlier, I would have saved myself a world of pain and suffering. Other PWME please note :)

    Kind regards, Mark
  8. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I think that's true for me as well.

    Lisa
  9. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    I haven't tried this yet, but Neurobiologix has a transdermal glutathione cream.

    Neurobiologix supplements are pharmaceutical grade and used by patients at neuorsensory centers across the country.

    You can look at the web site for Neurobiologix. The glutathione creme is listed under Topical Creams.

    I use several of their supplements and find them very helpful.

    PD

    I
  10. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Acetyl Glutathione - Lupaceutical Glutathione

    I recently ran across two forms of glutathione I wasn't familiar with, with claims being made by both that they're able to avoid the rapid breakdown normally associated with orally taken reduced glutathione. Thought I'd post them along with a brief description of each. Was wondering if anybody has any experience with either.

    I was also wondering, that if they do work far better than reduced glutathione, whether this might be an easier, and/or better, way to begin to regulate our gluathione levels. Rich, or anybody else, given how complex supporting our individual methylation cycles can be, do you think these supplements could be a useful tool in trying to raise/regulate our glutathione levels? Thanks for any input.

    Regards, Wayne
    .........................................................

    Lupaceutical Glutathione -

    The manufacturers of Lipoceutical Glutathione place GSH in tiny nanosize spheres called liposomes, which are absorbed readily into the body. Using this technology, human studies show over a 90% absorption rate. This patent pending process gives this product a reliable, extended shelf life.

    Medical Study:

    A cell culture study was conducted on Lipoceutical Glutathione at the Robert Wood Johnson Medical School by Gail Zeevalk, PhD. She found that this product was 100 times more potent at replenishing glutathione to neuron (brain) cells than plain glutathione.

    ..................................................

    Acetyl Glutathione -

    Reduced glutathione is acted upon by peptidases almost immediately in the blood, and tissues and thus loses its ability to enter cells and act intracellularly. Acetyl-glutathione is made by the liver and transported to all other tissues. It is easily assimilated intracellularly and then allowed to perform its powerful antioxidant and metabolic regulatory effects without prior decomposition by peptidases.

    ...........................................

    Testimonial Regarding Acetyl Glutathione and Sleep

    For the past few years I have been waking up at 3-4 a.m. and have been unable to get back to sleep. I have tried many different things to help, such as magnesium, melatonin, and skullcap, all which will work for a short time but never long term. From the first day of taking the Acetyl-glutathione, I have slept the entire night and wake refreshed. It is truly a remarkable product.
  11. boomer

    boomer Senior Member

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    My daughter nebulizes the B12 and the glutathione together. She then nebulizes magnesium. She has kept this up and she would not if it wasn't helping. She will tell me sometimes she feels a little better after. The trick is do not buy a regular nebulizer. These cheaper ones are loud and a person would not keep it up. she uses an expensive one that is small enough to put in her pocket and walk around with since it can run on batteries. It does not make a single sound and that is the best type.
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I'd never heard of a portable nebulizer, so I googled it. Are you talking about the Omron MicroAir? Or are there a number of choices? One of my kids takes asthma meds.
  13. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    How does a person learn about how to do this? Is a prescription required, or are all these products available over the counter? Also wondering about the cost; seems most of these products can be pretty expensive. Any input appreciated... Thanks.

    Wayne
  14. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Wayne,

    I nebulized reduced gluathione and Hydrox B12 together for quite some time. I didn't get the portable nebulizer as the sound didn't bother me. I got the one that was recommended by a journal for respiratory therapists and have been happy with it. I got a Pari Proneb Ultra Plus compressor with their Sprint nebulizer attachment--about $60. Some sites require a prescription, some don't. I shopped around on Google and found great price differences on the same models on different sites. I got it a few years ago so there is probably a new and better model.

    As far as the glutathione, you can buy reduced glut for nebulizing without a prescription here: http://www.theranaturals.com/products.html (Reduced L-Glutathione Plus). They have several types of glutathione capsules but this is the one for nebulizing. You open the capsule and dissolve the dose you want in about 5 ml of distilled water.

    This site is run by some biochemists who make preparations tailored particularly for cystic fibrosis patients. They will return your calls and are very helpful.

    Hydrox B12 for nebulizing requires a prescription.

    Sushi
  15. boomer

    boomer Senior Member

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    I'll have to get back to you with the name of the nebulizer. I telephoned /ordered the nebulizer from the distributer and it was delivered directly. You can order the face mast for about $9 too. I think the nebulizer was about $200 - around that. She gets the medication from a compound pharmacy in Ottawa - Watson Pharmacy.
  16. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I just started methylation a couple of weeks ago - liposomal glutathione is on the way. I take slow-released b12, d, c, magnesium, fish oil and actifolate and monolaurin and pop some milk thistle whenever it comes to my mind (need to add zinc). I'm not ready to go on the nebulization path yet until I see b12 depletion in my blood work but it sounds very effective. The trigger point scenario is really interesting - although my pain seems to get consistently better there are a few points that are hard to clear, not sure whether this is a similar experience.
  17. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Livon Labs GSH liposomal is amazing. That and ATP under the tongue have taken me to a new level. I have been tested lately with another surgery, doc visits all for kidney stones, stent, and removal and was in the ER all day today. I was not able to sleep with pain last night and I usually would be SO ill and flaked out but these two things have been amazing!

    I am well covered with the methalation supplements and all others so these have really done the rest of the job.
  18. satori

    satori

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    Sallysblooms

    What brand of ATP do you use? Thanks.
  19. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Well, I am up with pain from my kidney stuff reading email, ha. 5am and doing ok. I really think the new things have done a great job for me. I am so low on sleep with this latest problem.

    My ATP is Douglas Labratories. It is called ATP-20. I just take one in the morning, under my tongue.
  20. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Sallysblooms,

    I did a little research on this product and it does sound very interesting; but pricey! I was wondering where you get yours from; perhaps a place that is a little lower cost than some of the others. -- Thanks!

    Wayne

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