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glucose-how do we get it if the bugs and candida are using it all?

Discussion in 'Fungal Infection (Yeast, Candida)' started by lizw118, May 22, 2011.

  1. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hey everyone
    I am finding that I have paradoxical low glucose symptoms (tired and always wanting sugar, feeling much better when I eat it) yet bad dysbiosis and candida troubles. The bugs that I have in abundance are the types that eat sugar and produce d-lactate. So how do we get glucose if we can't eat any sugar because of the bad bugs? Can you inject it?
    Liz
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I have had this too with huge drops (to 40!) on a 3 hour glucose tolerance test. My doctor told me to eat high protein snack regularly and this makes a real difference. I think (not sure of the biochem) that the protein slowly breaks down to give you glucose--but without the "spikes" you get from directly eating sugar. I also take regular supplements to counteract candida build up.

    Sushi
     
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Liz.

    The liver (and to a lesser extent, the kidney) is able carry out a process called gluconeogenesis (i.e. the generation of new glucose). They make it from other substrates, including amino acids from protein and glycerol from fat. When glucose goes too low in the blood, the adrenals and the pancreas normally secrete cortisol and glucagon, respectively, and they stimulate gluconeogenesis. In CFS, cortisol production is frequently found to be deficient because of dysfunction of the HPA axis (sometimes referred to as adrenal fatigue, but usually not a problem with the adrenals themselves), and that makes the control of blood glucose more difficult. Hypoglycemia is therefore common in CFS. If glucose gets too low, the sympathetic nervous system kicks in by causing the adrenals to put out adrenaline (epineprhine) to save the brain. This unfortunately can result in panic attacks, particularly unpleasant when one is awakened from sleep by one of them!

    Sometimes I think the Devil himself devised CFS, because there are so many exquisite combinations of problems that interact with each other to increase the misery. This is a case in point: Glutathione depletion cuts down stomach acid production. This allows yeasts and bacteria that come in with the food to survive to reach the gut. Other CFS-related problems do other things to the gut, including slowing its motility. This gives the yeasts and unfriendly bacteria lots of access to the food coming in. They burn the sugars. Meanwhile, because of the HPA axis dysfunction, which I suspect is caused by glutathione depletion in the hypothalamus and pituitary, the sugar level in the blood goes down. This gives the person a craving for sugar. If they consume sugar, it feeds the yeasts and bacteria. If they don't, they can't relieve the hypoglycemia, and their brain doesn't function very well, because glucose is normally the main food for the brain. See what I mean about the Devil? :)-)

    One thing that might help the brain in this situation is coconut oil. It can feed the brain via ketones, which is the fallback food for the brain when there isn't enough glucose.

    In the long run, the solution has to be to fix the gut problems and lift the partial methylation cycle block. Getting there is not always so simple and straightforward though, unfortunately.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  4. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Sushi
    Thanks for the reply. I remember you mentioned that you were a patient of Dr. De Merlier (sp?). I am curious about what he prescribed for you in terms of diet and probiotics. Is candida your biggest issue? What supps do you take to counteract it and do you think there has been improvement in your condition? I am trying to eat organic jerky now as a snack where I would have eaten a piece of cheese before. I am trying to cut out as many sugars and carbs as possible. I had already cut a lot out a year ago, but had some hold-overs like organic kettle chips and cheddar cheese. It is really tough to let these go because all that is left is meat and vegetables, basically. I love animals and if I didn't have this condition I would probably not eat meat. However it is all I can eat now, it seems!! I think the protein snacks are a good idea.
    Liz
     
  5. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Rich
    You are so right about the awful constellation of problems with CFS. It's like an inverse ecosystem which creates havoc.
    You have raised a lot of issues I am also thinking about. I do believe that low stomach acid is an issue ( I see hints of that in the metameterix test in some areas as I look over) it and I need to be vigilant about taking HCL and creon enzymes before every meal and snack. I have come to this conclusion before a few times, then sort of forgot, then re-remember at times like this! I am actually on hydrocortisone for adrenal fatigue (I agree it is more likely HPA axis dysfunction) but it does not seem to help this issue. In fact I have read that HC makes candida worse. I sometimes regret having started it and I cannot stop taking it. I sometimes wonder if the HC has complicated the problem further.
    Ironically I have a bunch of coconut products on my shopping list for tomorrow, as you have suggested. I figured out that maybe I could make coconut chips with butter and shredded coconut or coconut bread, and maybe that would help my cravings a little. It seems like the only sweet(ish) thing I can have. If it helps with the candida that is really a bonus. It seems to me like the gut stuff is the most difficult area to fix. I feel like I have been working on this for so long, but staying completely sugar/carb free is almost impossible for me. I will try the coconut and see if it helps.
    Thanks!
    Liz
     
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Liz,

    Yes, I am a patient of De Meirleir. He does not always prescribe the same probiotic--he goes by your gut tests--but for me it was VSL-3. The diet recommendations come from the food sensitivity tests he ordered. It is pretty usual--no dairy of any kind (even fermented), no eggs, no legumes, avoid certain nuts, avoid sugar, and even though I didn't show gluten sensitivity I think I'll continue gluten free. But this is specific to me and my test results.

    My candida levels were low, so that is not my main problem. Probably my main problem is XMRV and immune dysfunction. I think the low candida is because I have taken a lot of drugs and supplements in the past to lower candida and I avoid most sugars. I also take caprylic acid daily, which I think comes from coconuts!

    Speaking of coconuts, I just found coconut milk yogurt and it is a nice treat.

    KDM often works with a dietician who generally gives a low histamine diet for those taking GcMAF (which I am).

    You mentioned taking Creon enzymes. KDM prescribed Creon 150 for me, but it seems to be very expensive. What is your source and, if you don't mind, the price?

    You are right! Not a lot is left. I too used to be a vegetarian until my tests showed me that I couldn't afford to be with this disease.

    So now my diet is quite different from the past--particularly since I have to avoid legumes--at least for some months.

    Sushi
     
  7. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Sushi
    I am in the states where creon is prescription. I used to order it from a canadian pharmacy where it was very expensive but now my doctor prescribes it, thankfully, and my insurance pays for most of it, which is very helpful indeed.
    Do you eat any fruit? Sounds like you are working hard at recovery.
    Liz
     
  8. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Liz,

    I eat a little fruit--not much.

    I am also in the States but my insurance won't pay for Creon. I do have the prescription and am checking whether it is cheaper in Europe or somewhere else. Do you find it helps you?

    Thanks for the info.
    Sushi
     
  9. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Liz,

    What does your GP think of your high d-lactate? Does he know about d-lactate. Maybe you should educate him, it should be barely discernable in healthy humans, and if you show high levels, you should be referred to a gastro for treatment and monitoring of this.

    Glynis x
     
  10. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Sushi
    I honestly am not sure if the creon helps. I thought so a little at first. It's so hard to tell with all of the supplements sometimes. I think if you get it prescribed it is actually cheaper. You might want to check into it. Even if your insurance doesn't pay you might pay less from a pharmacy. I do think it is the most powerful one so it is probably worth a try.
    Liz
     
  11. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Glynis
    My GP doesn't understand about much of this stuff. I was diagnosed by a naturopath who wasn't really a regular internist. I did book an appt with a gastro specialist but I am not convinced much can be done aside from antibiotics, which I am not sure I want to try. Still I suppose it is worth a visit to the gastro!
    Liz
     
  12. sensing progress

    sensing progress Senior Member

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    Tucson, AZ
    Sushi, what high protein snacks do you eat? I would eat more of them, but I find eating protein usually requires cooking of some sort, and I'm often too tired for that. I do like beef jerky but that gets expensive.
     
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Sensing,

    Easy stuff like nuts, slices of organic turkey--definitely stuff that doesn't require cooking!

    Best snacking wishes,
    Sushi
     
  14. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    RE the glucose issue. I wonder if I put a glucose tablet under my tongue if I could get some of the glucose without it going into my digestive system and feeding the bad bugs. Does this sound like a bad idea?
    Liz
     
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Liz.

    I had never heard of this, but it appears that other great minds beside your own have also come up with this idea! Check this out:

    J Trop Pediatr. 2010 Aug;56(4):227-34. Epub 2009 Nov 23.
    Mini-review: Management of hypoglycaemia in children aged 0-59 months.
    Achoki R, Opiyo N, English M.
    Source

    KEMRI/Wellcome Trust Research Programme, Nairobi, Kenya.
    Abstract

    Hypoglycaemia is associated with poor prognosis in many severe childhood illnesses especially in sub-Saharan Africa where the prevalence of malaria, diarrhoea and malnutrition remains high. Uncertainty, however, still persists regarding the significance, definition and management of childhood hypoglycaemia. As a step towards defining optimal, evidence-based diagnostic and management criteria, we (i) reviewed the evidence underlying current recommendations for the management of hypoglycaemia, and (ii) analysed a large set of data on blood glucose levels and associated outcomes of paediatric admissions in a rural hospital over an 11-year period. Current definitions and treatment protocols for hypoglycaemia are based on observational data and expert opinion. Future large pragmatic randomized trials would help define optimal treatment thresholds. Emerging evidence suggests that sublingual sugar is a feasible and effective therapy for correction of hypoglycaemia, and should be considered where intravenous glucose is delayed or impossible.

    PMID: 19933785

    I'll be interested to hear how this works for you, if you decide to try it. Sweettarts are made of compressed dextrose (aka glucose).

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  16. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi,

    My daughter suffers from hypoglycaemia and the paed told me years ago to rub her hypostop (glucose) into her gums, as it would be absorbed quicker this way.

    Glynis x
     
  17. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    rich
    I bought some glucose tablets at algreens and they taste exactly like sweet tarts!! I am going to try the experiment today.

    @Glynis
    Does your daughter have hypoglycemia because of her bactrial overgrowth? Glucose tabs in the gums scare me a little because I already have so many cavities. I think the bacteria in my gut, prevotella, are the same as the ones in my mouth.

    Liz
     
  18. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi Liz,

    I think it has been seen in other children with her condition, I cannot remember it being connected with a bacterial overgrowth, as the GI has not really investigated this (overgrowth).

    When you go to the GI app, if they request a urine test, make sure you supply one taken late in the afternoon, or early evening. Blood serum will test normal for lactate, but urine taken late in the day, should test high for total lactate, which they then should investigate for d-lactate.

    Glynis
     

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