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GI Biofilm/ infection/heavy metals

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by albellenfant, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hiya!

    I tried out taking the Kirkman Labs enzyme mixture which I think has a bit of everything and was formulated by Amy Yasko.
    I was taking timed release Erythromycin to follow.
    Then chlorella and the methylation cycle supplements for chelation.
    and charcoal when it got too bad.

    I could only hack it for a few days as I felt so awful. Headaches that made me vomit from the pain etc.
    I am convinced my mistake was the chelation, chlorella is not effective enough, I reckon you need a pharmaceutical grade chelator.
    I also think it is probably very hard to get this right without a doctor doing constant tests to monitor what is going on iside you.
  2. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Hi Athene

    Sorry to hear of your bad response to these things. I wonder if the erythromycin could be partly to blame. I had a very bad reaction to azithromycin, which is of the same family of drugs I believe.

    Jenny
  3. silicon

    silicon Senior Member

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    I really appreciate all of the comments on this thread about this difficult topic. I noticed that Usman (an autism doc) recommends EDTA as a chelator—there is a specific non-calcium-based EDTA product called disodium EDTA (from Wonderlabs) recommended on her link.

    http://www.autismpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Protocols/Usman

    I was planning on using this product once I get up the nerve to actually try the biofilm protocol. You guys’ experiences are somewhat scary—it doesn’t seem like anyone on this thread has gotten results that have actually helped…yet. I guess the stuff that is liberated under the biofilm is fairly noxious, and requires comprehensive chelation and pathogen-killing (although I will use oregano oil and caprylic acid, as I am terrified of pharmaceutical antibiotics, as I think they unbalanced my gut years ago).

    Perhaps the autism docs seem to achieve better results with their patients due to their constant monitoring and adapting the protocol dosages to the individual?? I guess “titrating” up the dosages and going very slow may be the sane approach.

    In the meantime, I just began tinkering with methylation, and maybe I’ll just see how that goes for a few weeks.

    I guess in general, when we start a bunch of new supplements simultaneously (as we are guided to do on this protocol), it can be challenging to identify which supplement is causing problems and should be replaced with an alternative--or could it be that a herx reaction is occurring, that actually may be beneficial in the long run—but how to tell the difference!

    I took some nattokinase a few years ago, and years before that, some oregano oil and caprylic acid (since an old stool test identified the presence of pathogens that were vulnerable to these supplements)—but could detect no impact from any of these supplements. But I’m hoping that combining these types of supplements in the context of this protocol will yield a more promising result.
  4. silicon

    silicon Senior Member

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    aquariusgirl, perhaps regular use of binders might be more tolerable if they are taken as far away from meals as possible so that they dont bind much of the good stuff, in addition to toxins? Hopefully you arent experiencing detox symptoms right after meals (and if you are, might that mean you are allergic to what you just ate?). Just some random thoughts.
  5. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    abx and biofilm

    Athene

    Boy, you really went for the scorched earth approach, using a pharmaceutical drug with this protocol. :worried:
    I would think that's just way too aggressive. I mean I got sick using herbal antimicrobials.
    I"m not surprised you had a bad reaction. I squirmed when I read that.
    Sorry...don't mean to be patronising or rude.. Trust me, I feel for you.

    I took a whole capsule of IMF with the protocol one time.. & I knew the minute I popped it.. that it was a bad idea & that I should just have emptied a portion of the capsule under my tongue.

    I didn't have a bad reaction the last time I did this when I just used one or maybe 2 caps of candex.

    So, it may just be a matter of calibrating what is and isn't tolerable.

    Silicon, I don't know any CFS docs who are using this protocol yet.

    Unfortunately, it's a matter of trial and error for us PWCs, I guess.
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Interesting Jenny. I was prescribed erythromycin when I first came down with cfs. The doc shld never have given me abx for what was clearly a viral infection.. but I also reacted badly.
    It caused me to come out in a rash.
    Oen doc said it probably upset my gut.....not sure why he thought this.. but I swore off abx after this event 16 yrs ago.
  7. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    athene
    what chelators did you use? horsetail, edta? Yasko doesn't use very many strong chelators. I think the EDTA chelator complex by LEF is about as strong as she likes.
    Yeah, you're right. It wld be useful to run FTMs to see what metals you're releasing and then regular CSAs to see how the gut is holding up.
    Yasko doesn't like this protocol, btw. She thinks it's too aggressive and she's not convinced those biofilms are there.
  8. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi aquarious girl,

    Like I said, the only chelator I used was chlorella and a herbal supplement called TMD (toxic metal detox) along with the standard methylation supplements. Not pharmaceutical grade, not strong enough.

    The only pharma grade item I used was the erythromycin and, as Jenny said, this has unpleasant side effects. I have been prescribed it for my naughty gut bacteria each month by KDM which is why I took it. It makes me nauseous and get low blood sugar crises and dizziness but the reaction on this biofilm treatment was drastically worse, so there was definitely someting else going on.

    The reason I am convinced the symptoms were coming from metals is because I got the exact same effect after doing a DMSA provocative test to find out what metals I have in my body. I failed to drink the required 29,000 gallons (approx) of water after the test to flush them out and got headache so bad I was puking from the pain, bruising all over, and severe muscle weakness. The minerals were flowing round my body but not being excreted.

    Anyway I don't plan on trying this again by myself. What I think went on is only guesswork, after all. It's easy to think you're getting a herx reaction when actually you're getting a toxic effect from some supplement that you're allergic to or intolerant to.

    Also btw Aquarious girl, I don't really agree with you that pharma grade treatments are always more aggressive than herbal ones. Some herbal therapies are amazingly powerful and I've read about people getting terrible symptoms and some serious complications from herbal treatments for various things. I honestly think we need to be just as cautious about using them as using pharma drugs which, after all, are actually tested and analysed much more thoroughly .
  9. sela

    sela Senior Member

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    i tried this protocol too. using oregano leaf , chlorella, and chitosan. nattokinase. i seemingly had no reaction to methylation protocol that i have been on for 5 months. nothing dramatic on this one either but i am slowly slowly getting worse. lower and lower energy. more and more feeling of disturbed nerves. i quit after a month just to see if i got better. not really.

    i wish i knew if getting worse is due to the biofilm protocol. or what.
  10. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    fallout

    Well, yah, an IMF is probably on a par with an antibiotic. I guess I just think that dosage wise, an antibiotic packs more of a punch than 250 mg of an herb or antifungal.. ..but we can agree to disagree.

    You make a good point about chelators though.

    As I understand it, the protocol includes binders but no chelators, but it would make sense to include chelators because of the whole virus/metals thing.

    I'll remember that next time.
  11. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Sela,

    I just wanted go a little off the thread subject to say that I had no very clear benefits form methylation therapy except to feel quite a bit worse. Now I have been doing it for 6 months and I think perhaps I am starting to feel a little better. I think that may be a fairly typical experience, as my doc told me I would probably feel a bit worse for a year before feeling better.

    Re chelators, one of the articles I read about this protocol said chelators are very important as well as binders, because such a lot of minerals are released. I've lost all my saved links as my old computer just died, but I think it may have been the link I posted earlier in this thread.
  12. sela

    sela Senior Member

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    i just wanted to update that this is one powerful treatment. it is not trivial by any means. i went off of it for a while to rest, just did two days of it again and i am already deciding to back off. it must be doing something.
  13. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    sela. to clarify.. are u talking about biofilm ormethylation>?
    it's a little unclear ..because athene is talking about methylation ...and your post follows her and could be responding to hers.
    if you're talking about biofilm.. yes, i haven't gone back to it yet.
    i'm a little scared to tell the truth.
    definately to be treated with respect.
  14. sela

    sela Senior Member

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    yes, biofilm. i am using nattokinase, olive leaf, and chitosan. each of these separately have no apparent effect on me.
  15. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I think sticking an antibiotic would be a good thing at this point if you can handle it. I also think that the dosage could be reduced in the given situation and I would bet the lower dose is as effectice as the normal dosage under normal cicumstances. It's just something that I have found as a general rule, is that antibiotics (and other meds) can stand a dosage reduction due to the fact your priming the absorption of it by doing the detox or clense.
    What I'm wondering though is that I read somewhere on here that they had to use specific antibiotics, but it didn't say which one. My question was if this in anyway coorelates to the advisory a couple of weks ago about anyone that was taking Prevacid or Nexium (any proton pump inhibitor) might be at risk of developing the intestinal bacteria (and can't remember the name of it) and in most cases the anitbiotic had to be used as the only tested way of eliminating it. Of course it was part of the entire process as well, but as I was hoping to try to say was that I'm curious if this the same bacteriea (or could be) that I believe is mentioned on a different post. I'll have to look it up tomorrow and I'll post back any info that I can dig up.

    Edit: Here is link to Medscape article referencing the PPI bacteria condition, which is Clostridium bacteria. This news was also just issued by the CDC, which I geuss we will be hearing from soon. I need to look into this bacteria a little more.
  16. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    This thread and topic have been on my mind for quite a while now. Ive been anticipating getting started on an enzymatic program to begin to break down whatever biofilms I have in my body. Having tested positive for Lyme, I assume I have some, and quite likely, a good amount.

    I just bought a bottle of Wobenzym enzymes yesterday, and came back to this thread to review the original article that was posted by Albellenfant. Unfortunately, Im unable to find the article. The link takes me to a website that has the following message: We're sorry, that page can not be found. The requested page does not exist or you are not allowed to access it!

    I was wondering if anybody else here might be able to access this article, whether on this particular website or somewhere else online. If I knew the authors name, its possible I could do a search and track the article down somewhere else.

    I had thought I would use this article as somewhat of a guide as I embarked on my own anti-biofilm program. If I cant find this article, it would also help if anybody had any other suggestions on where I might be able to find some good information.

    Thanks for whatever help you can offer.

    Wayne
  17. Karin

    Karin

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    I've done biofilm protocols on myself and my son a few times, using enzymes and EDTA on an empty stomach, bug killers 30 minutes later, and activated charcoal and fibers a couple hours later. I am not going to try this again. We both had very severe adverse reactions (high fever, heavy diarrhea), after 4 or 5 days of the protocol. In my son's case, he recovered on his own in a week or two, but in my case, it went on and on for three weeks, finally a course of Flagyl stopped the reaction. I had inflamation in my spine, from my hips up to my neck, no matter what position.

    I agree that biofilms make sense and are likely what is happening and why we keep getting sick. However, the problem with biofilm protocols is that they also destroy the protective mucus layer that coats the gut, which in a sense is also a biofilm, produced by good bacteria. If this is stripped, then you expose the immune systeme raw to all the bad stuff in there and the reaction can be BAAAADDD.

    I still think it makes sense, but I am personally not going to revisit this kind of protocols. Maybe we just did it wrong.
  18. Karin

    Karin

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    And yes, I forgot, I saw a lot of membrane-looking stuff coming out of my son, looking like dark green semi-elastic semi-transparent membranes, about 2" by 2" size, sometimes mixed with stool, sometimes a pile of this stuff, looking like cooked spinach. Since he was still in diapers it was easy to investigate. At the same time than this was coming out, his bottom got covered in acne-like pimples. Maybe spores or something... I also had some myself but not as much.
  19. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I just ran across a well written article that I think is appropriate to this thread (below). I think it contains good information that would be helpful for anybody considering enzyme therapy and for PWCs in general.

    Best, Wayne
    ....................................................

    Health Benefits of Systemic Enzyme Therapy

    Using Systemic Enzymes as a Natural Anti-Inflammatory

    Enzymes are the first line of defense against inflammation. (1,2,3). Inflammation is a reaction by the immune system to an irritation. Let’s say you have an injured right knee. The immune system, sensing the irritation in the knee, creates a protein chain called a Circulating Immune Complex (CIC for short), tagged specifically for that right knee. (A scientist who found the tagging mechanism won the Nobel Prize in biology in 1999). This CIC floats down to the right knee and causes pain, redness and swelling – the classic earmarks for inflammation. This, at first, is a beneficial reaction; it warns us that a part of ourselves is hurt and needs attention. But, inflammation is self-perpetuating, it creates an irritation that in response, the body makes CIC’s for!

    Aspirin, Ibuprofen, Celebrex, Viox and the rest of the Non Steroidial Anti Inflammatory Drugs all work by keeping the body from making all the CIC’s. This ignores the fact that some CIC’s are vital to life, like those that maintain the lining of the intestines and those that keep the kidneys functioning! Not to mention the fact that they, along with acetaminophen, are highly toxic to the liver. Every year 20,000 Americans die from these over the counter drugs and another 100,000 will wind up in the hospital with liver damage, kidney damage or bleeding intestines from the side effects of these drugs. (4,5).

    Systemic enzymes, on the other hand, are perfectly safe and free of dangerous side effects. They have no LD-50, or toxic dose. (6). Best of all, systemic enzymes can tell the difference between the good CIC’s and the bad ones. This is due to the fact that hydrolytic enzymes are lock and key mechanisms and their “teeth” will only fit over the bad CIC’s. So instead of preventing the creation of all CIC’s, systemic enzymes just “eat” the bad ones and in so doing, lower inflammation everywhere. With that, pain is also lowered.


    Systemic Enzymes for Anti Fibrosis

    Enzymes eat scar tissue and fibrosis. (7). Fibrosis is scar tissue and most doctors learn in anatomy that it is fibrosis that eventually kills us all. Let me explain. As we age, which starts at 27, we have a diminishing of the body’s output of enzymes. This is because we make a finite amount of enzymes in a lifetime and we use up a good deal of them by the time we reach our 40’s (Cystic Fibrosis patients who have virtually no enzyme production to speak of, even as children usually don’t make it past their 20’s before they die of the restriction and shrinkage in the lungs from the formation of fibrosis or scar tissue).

    So our body begins to dole out our enzymes with an eyedropper instead of with a tablespoon. Result: the repair mechanism of the body goes off balance and has nothing to reduce the over abundance of fibrin it deposits in nearly everything from simple cuts, to the inside of our internal organs and blood vessels. It is then when most women begin to develop things like fibrocystic breast disease, uterine fibroids, and endometriosis. We all grow arterial sclerotic (meaning scar tissue) plaque, and have fibrin begin to spider web its way inside of our internal organs, reducing their size and function over time. This is why as we age our wounds heal with thicker, less pliable, weaker and very visible scars.

    If we replace the lost enzymes, we can control and reduce the amount of scar tissue and fibrosis our bodies have. As physicians in the US are now discovering, even old scar tissue can be “eaten away” from surgical wounds, pulmonary fibrosis, and kidney fibrosis even keloid years after their formation. Medical doctors in Europe and Asia have known this and used orally administered enzymes for such for over 40 years!

    Systemic Enzymes and Blood Cleansing

    The blood is not only the river of life; it is also the river through which the cells and organs dispose of their waste. Enzymes improve circulation by eating the excess fibrin that causes blood to sometimes get as thick as catsup or yogurt, creating the perfect environment for the formation of clots. All of this material is supposed to be cleaned off by the liver on “first pass” or the first time it goes through. Given the sluggish and near toxic or toxic states of everyone’s liver these days, that seldom happens. So the waste remains in the blood, waiting for the liver to have enough free working space and enough enzymes to clean it. This can take days or in some people, weeks! (8).

    When systemic enzymes are taken, they stand ready in the blood and take the strain off of the liver by:
    • Cleaning excess fibrin from the blood and reducing the stickiness of blood cells. These two actions minimize the leading causes of stroke and heart attack: blood clots (8).
    • Breaking dead material down small enough that it can immediately pass into the bowel. (8).
    • Cleansing the FC receptors on the white blood cells, improving their function and availability to fight off infection. (9).
    And here we come to the only warning we have to give concerning the use of Vitalzym or any other systemic enzyme – don’t use the product if you are a hemophiliac or are on prescription blood thinners like coumadin, heparin and plavix. The enzymes cause the drugs to work better, so there is the possibility of thinning the blood too much.

    Systemic Enzymes to help Modulate the Immune System

    Enzymes are adaptogenic, seeking to restore a steady state to the body. (9). When the immune system is running low, we become susceptible to infectious disease. When it’s cranked up too high, then the system creates antibodies that attack it’s own tissues, as are seen in the autoimmune diseases of MS, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Lupus. Here the Vitalzym will tone down immune function and eat away at the antibodies the immune system is making to attack its bodies own tissue.

    When the immune system is run down too low, the enzymes increase immune response, producing more Natural Killer cells, and improving the efficiency of the white blood cells, all leading to improved immunity.

    Systemic Enzymes for Fighting Viruses

    Viruses harm us by replicating in our bodies. To do this, a virus must bond itself to the DNA in our cells through the medium of its exterior protein cell wall. Anything that disrupts that cell wall inhibits the ability of viral replication by rendering individual viruses inert. (10, 11). Systemic enzymes can tell the difference between the proteins that are supposed to be in your body and those that are foreign or not supposed to be there (again the enzyme lock and key mechanism). Vitalzym has the strongest protein eating effect of any enzyme due to its Serrapeptase content and can be of help in combating viruses.

    References

    1) Carroll A., R.: Clinical examination of an enzymatic anti-inflammatory agent in emergency surgery. Arztl. Praxis 24 (1972), 2307.
    2) Mazzone A, et al.: Evaluation of Serratia peptidase in acute or chronic inflammation of otorhinolaryngology pathology: a multicentre, double blind, randomized trial versus placebo. J Int Med Res. 1990; 18(5):379-88.
    3) Kee W., H. Tan S, L., Lee V. Salmon Y. M.: The treatment of breast engorgement with Serrapeptase: a randomized double blind controlled trial. Singapore Med J. 1989:30(I):48-54.
    4) Celebrex article. Wall Street Journal. 19 April 1999.
    5) No author listed: Regular Use of Pain Relievers Can Have Dangerous Results. Kaleidoscope Interactive News, American Medical Association media briefing. July 24, 1997.
    6) Enzymes – A Drug of the Future, Prof. Heinrich Wrba MD and Otto Pecher MD. Published 1993 Eco Med.
    7) Kakinumu A. et al.: Regressing of fibrinolysis in scalded rats by administration of serrapeptase. Biochem. Pharmacol. 31:2861-2866, 1982.
    [​IMG] Ernst E., Matrai A.: Oral Therapy with proteolytic enzymes for modifying blood rheology. Klin Wschr. 65 (1987), 994.
    9) Kunze R., Ransberger K., et at: Humoral immunomodulatory capacity of proteases in immune complex decomposition and formation. First International symposium on combination therapies, Washington, DC, 1991.
    10) Jager H.: Hydrolytic Enzymes in the therapy of HIV disease. Zeitschr. Allgemeinmed., 19 (1990), 160.
    11) Bartsch W.: The treatment of herpes zoster using proteolytic enzymes. Der Informierte Arzt. 2 (1974), 424-429.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do prebiotics/inulin/FOS feed the biofilm?

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