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getting probiotics to survive stomach

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by mike1127, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. mike1127

    mike1127

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    What formations of probiotic supplements are able to survive stomach acid? One theory advanced by Ripley is that taking them with resistant starch helps.

    I read on Wikipedia that the gut has 100 trillion bacteria. Makes you wonder how a supplement with a few billion is going to do much, even more so if they are largely destroyed in the stomach. Gut bacteria are established very early in an infant and some features are set for life, although from my reading it looks like many things can alter the ratio of organisms (gaining and losing weight, use of antibiotics).
  2. Indigophoton

    Indigophoton

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    VSL#3 might be worth a look, the manufacturers claim it survives the journey through the stomach. There is a fair amount of research as to its effectiveness for some conditions too.

    I have found it very helpful in challenging dysbiosis.
  3. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I've managed to both increase bifidobacteria species and decrease lactobacilli through taking bifido probiotic strains (mainly using Custom Probiotics) and drastically reducing yogurt consumption. I've also significantly increased my butyrate levels by consuming butter and raw veggies mainly zucchini.

    I worked on these goals in between taking 3 comprehensive stool analysis, and that's what came out in the results. First test showed almost non existent bifido strains and short chain fatty acids especially butyrate and almost off the chart lactobacilli strains.

    So in my experience it does seem possible to alter your gut flora using probiotics and diet. These tests were 5 months apart.
    South and Hanna like this.
  4. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    @mike1127, it is not my theory. The ability for resistant starch to provide bacteria safe passage through the stomach has been established by scientific research:

    Encapsulation Technology to Protect Probiotic Bacteria
    By María Chávarri, Izaskun Marañón and María Carmen Villarán
    DOI: 10.5772/50046
    It's pretty simple. You take your resistant starch with your probiotic and/or fermented food and that's all there is to it. This natural encapsulation of RS allows you to alter your gut much more quickly than probiotics alone. The changes happen very quickly.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
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  5. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    You can alter your gut flora in as little as a few days just by changing your diet — as Jeff Leach of the American Gut Project recently demonstrated.


    It's more difficult to accomplish this with probiotics alone, since the prebiotics are far more effective for re-populating the gut flora than probiotics alone are...

    http://pmid.us/20920376
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
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  6. mike1127

    mike1127

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    Thanks, Ripley. Sorry, I'm in a habit of calling everything a theory, didn't mean to imply I was skeptical or that it was purely your idea. Do you just swallow the probiotic and follow it up with food that contains RS? Does the order matter? Do they need to be taken one immediately after the other, or just somewhere in the same meal?
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Somewhere in the same meal is fine. You can even mix RS into sauces, provided the sauce doesn't exceed 120º-130º. For most people, the recommendation is to mix up the routine. Sometimes take RS, in water, on an empty stomach for a SIBO-cleansing effect that simultaneously feeds the bacteria in the colon. However, if you have only bad bacteria in your gut and virtually no good bacteria, this might backfire since the bad bacteria could conceivably eat the RS. So, perhaps just using the small amount of RS in "safe starches" might be a better idea when you are starting out.

    Other times, take RS mixed in yogurt or kefir, etc. Bacteria should attach the RS granules instantly, but you can let it sit for a minute or two if you wish.

    Other times, take RS, in water, and down your desired probiotic pills with or without a meal.

    But, those only apply for people who are ready to take prebiotics as part of their recovery. I don't think you should be taking prebiotics if you are still experiencing gut pain (and I know that you are).

    If you do decide to try Resistant Starch, you need to go extremely slow because it is very powerful and it is not suggested for anyone who is currently experiencing gut pain.

    If you determine you are in the "repopulation" stage of your recovery, I would start with just a half-teaspoon of PS mixed in yogurt or in water when downing a probiotic and work up slowly. The point of using a little RS with a fermented food/probiotic is to shuttle in missing "keystone" bacteria directly to the colon. Then you need to start fertilizing those keystone bacteria with RS-rich "safe starches" before working up to supplemental levels of RS. Eating PHD-levels of safe starch will give you about 6-8g of RS/day, which is something to work up to. The "safe starches" will also promote mucin production, which will help heal the lining of your gut (along with bone broth).

    And don't try eating a raw potato for the RS, because the toxins in a raw potato would be pretty harmful to someone in a compromised state — luckily those toxins are absent from Potato Starch.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
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  8. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Additionally, I would point out — for anyone who is attempting to repopulate their gut — that most dairy-based probiotics are inadequate for repopulation and repairing the lining of the gut. The reason is because the dairy-based bacteria tend to be only a tiny part of a healthy adult's gut microbiota. The key to repopulation isn't really numbers, but rather diversity and then feeding that diversity its natural prebiotics (inulin, FOS/GOS, FODMAPs, NSP and Resistant Starch, with Resistant Starch being the most innocuous of those prebiotics).
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
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  9. mike1127

    mike1127

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    Thanks, Ripley. Out of the list of probiotics I've studied, I'm interested in Prescript-Assist and VSL #3. Dr. Yasko also advocates taking a variety of probiotics and rotating among several sources. I'm on a budget, but the cool thing about rotating among sources is that it doesn't cost any more (you have to buy more probiotics, but you use up each one more slowly).
    Ripley likes this.
  10. South

    South Senior Member

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    @Ripley in post #5 you said you think that increasing the level of bacteroides is bad. Can you explain? Some folks are saying bacteroides is what we want more of.
  11. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Yes, I've been seeing that too. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know either. I'm not sure anyone does at this point. My gut feeling, in general, is that we need to feed the gut flora and we know that fermentation seems to change the pH to slightly more acidic conditions. From what I've read, that shift seems to reduce pathogens and improve the good bacteria. But, you're right, it's probably all more complex than any of us realize.

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