Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
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Gender bias, MUS, Epistemic Injustice: the evidence

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Jenny TipsforME, May 23, 2017.

  1. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    In the last few days the issue of gender has been raised a lot, especially to do with the Medically Unexplained Symptoms agenda. It has surprised me how different our views and understanding of gender bias in healthcare is.

    This thread is somewhere to add evidence about this, especially any research evidence.

    So the questions are:
    Is this marginalisation of patient voice in MUS conditions related to being majority female?
    Also
    Are MUS conditions mostly picked due to Epistemic Injustice and being majority female?
    What is the evidence?
    I'm hoping other people will add to this too. Eg @JaimeS @Molly98

    A few other threads are of interest, though not the same as this one:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/is-medicine’s-gender-bias-killing-young-women.37455/

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-factual-information.51601/page-4#post-853580

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...evidence-from-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.48193/
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  2. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    I'm at the end of my spoons for the day but I'll park a couple of examples of information here.
     
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  3. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    Understanding the concept of Epistemic Injustice is probably necessary for this thread. In relation to ME it is discussed here http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics...in-the-treatment-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

    @Keith Geraghty And co
    See also their journal article http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...evidence-from-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.48193/

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  4. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    So the questions are:
    Is this marginalisation of patient voice in MUS conditions related to being majority female?
    Also
    Are MUS conditions mostly picked due to Epistemic Injustice and being majority female?

    My instinct would be yes to both, but can this be evidenced?
     
  5. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    http://journals.lww.com/pain/Abstra...roviders__judgments_in_chronic_pain__.10.aspx

    If you could help find studies on this topic that would be great!
     
  6. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    Also this is a complex issue, it is probably worth copying in some previous posts to avoid covering the same ground.
     
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  7. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    These may get edited down tomorrow. To get the idea of what has been discussed:
    BTW I regretted that throw away comment it resulted in lots of debate about the definition of patriarchy!

    @Jonathan Edwards (couldn't copy post properly)

    Is it credible?! If we think so we need to find the evidence...
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  8. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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  9. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    I'll just add in your latest response

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  10. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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  11. Molly98

    Molly98 Senior Member

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    @Jenny TipsforME Thank you for tagging me in. Such an interesting thread and important topic. And one I am very interested in, I do wish my typing, reading would keep up with my thoughts as I would love to contribute but also seriously flagging and out of spoons.
    I hope I am able to engage more over coming days.
     
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  12. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I note the condition brought up in the other thread - "gulf war syndrome".
    It would be interesting if any work has been done on GWS, and treatment of female sufferers of it.
     
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  13. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    @RogerBlack yes we should look that up. Also any emasculating terminology for the men affected.

    Something that comes to mind is Nancy Klimas saying she uses Gulf War research funding as a back route to getting info for ME, because they're similar but it is a lot easier to get funding to study Gulf War Syndrome. I don't think this is solely gender based (compensation payments are probably relevant).

    Right I'm off for the evening.
     
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  14. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I wonder however if it matters at all.
    If doctors were shooting MUS patients to end their suffering, the proper tactic is not to ensure they are shooting a properly gender selected group of people.
     
  15. Ysabelle-S

    Ysabelle-S Highly Vexatious

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    I agree that gender is a big issue here, but it intersects with other issues too, not to mention cynical self-serving careerism, and the growing problem of the opposition trying to make sure their BPS establishment 'treatments' are in place before the shit hits the fan, thereby keeping them in a job longer. Someone mentioned GWS on another thread as an example of males being targeted. I actually think veterans are enormously vulnerable as a patient group when governments don't want to be forced to take responsibility for their own mistakes. These are the same governments who are capable of sacrificing military lives for bad causes (which incidentally is a perfect example of patriarchy - WWI is one of the worst examples, with so many male lives for old men's arguments). Just look at the treatment of veterans - some left homeless, without jobs, rejected by social security - after risking their lives for their countries. I think there are groups in society whose interests are somewhat more disposable, especially if those interests clash with the elite.

    As for patriarchy, it is a pyramid system of power. Technically a woman can sit at the top - Elizabeth I for example. But it doesn't change the system. It's an anomaly that passes. The pyramid has a tiny amount of people at the top, and a lot of people at the bottom. Society is a pyramid made up of pyramids (families) - traditionally the head of the family was male, and women and children were further down. I'm pretty certain there was at least one country where killing your husband was seen as an act of petty treason, because you were killing the symbolic king (the head of the family). Whereas men who killed their wives were not convicted of petty treason.

    Patriarchy has a system of class stratification, sucking power and money upwards. But it allows people at the bottom to exercise control over others there. Class, race, gender, sexuality, etc, etc, all exist within this structure. Gender isn't the half of it. And this division and stratification along gender, race and other lines stops people from being united against the minority at the top, since they're too busy trying to get a better rung on the ladder themselves, even if they're already near the bottom. Upper class white women colluded with slavery, and they have historically treated lower class people of any gender poorly or even with snobbery or cruelty. Gender is more obviously connected to patriarchy, but there have been massive injustices committed against men - press ganging, rounding men up to fight in wars they had no interest in, and WWI to me is one of the most terrible examples. An utter waste of human life. And the way that men were shamed with the likes of white feathers if they didn't want to fight - utterly disgusting. It was predominantly male lives that were lost there, and you can bet it wasn't the people at the top of the military. It was the more expendable men, more expendable because of social class for one.

    So yes, I think it's complicated. But that's why the collusion of women professionals is not exactly leaving me surprised.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  16. Molly98

    Molly98 Senior Member

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    Just one little comment for people to think about and perhaps add their experiences or analysis.

    Once upon a time I would consider myself a strong, independent woman, owned my own home aged 21, traveled the world on my own, studied at post grad level, was a respected professional in my work. I get Diagnosed with ME all of a sudden, my experience, voice, views, intelligence are wiped out over night, nothing is believed or taken seriously, you all will know and share the experience I am sure.

    But how is it I generally get a far better response and taken more seriously if my husband accompanies me to all appointments, all DWP stuff, everything. He now comes to everything with me because we both know there is less chance of being outright dismissed, and far less chance of abusive or ridiculing behavior.

    I hate and I mean hate that it has to be this way, but it is this way, if I am to get anywhere I now have to have him there. The difference in attitude can be quite startling. Professional looking white man in a suit, listened to and respected, sick female with ME dismissed and ridiculed and not taken seriously. But then perhaps neither are Male ME patients. But would taking your wife or partner make any Difference? and is it that you are being treat in this way because ME is perceived weak, in ability to push through, get on with things, be a Man, so as said before it is perceived as weak and feminine and that's why men with ME are also not being taken seriously.
     
  17. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    @RogerBlack using that analogy we're saying that a group is chosen for shooting BECAUSE they are majority female. So in that case men in that majority female group should be loudly challenging this criteria for execution!
     
  18. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    No, I'm saying you should stop the shooting.
    In that MUS treatment as it is currently envisioned is not in fact a useful concept at all.
     
  19. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    @Ysabelle-S i do agree but this thread is focused on the gender aspect.
     
  20. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    What about evidence? Either way.
     
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