Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Frontier studies on fatigue, autonomic nerve dysfunction, and sleep-rhythm disorder

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Dolphin, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,533
    Likes:
    27,370
    Free full text: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12576-015-0399-y

     
    Simon, Justin30, merylg and 2 others like this.
  2. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,533
    Likes:
    27,370
    From Cort Johnson

     
    merylg, Woolie and barbc56 like this.
  3. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,526
    Likes:
    4,115
    .

    Thank you for this. It describes exactly what I've feeling but have had difficulty explaining clearly this particular aspect of my fatigue clearly.I hadn't heard of the term fatigue sensation. I am seeing my doctor next week because these symptoms have dramatically increased over the last six months.

    This will help!

    Thanks for the article!
     
  4. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Likes:
    13,006
    Beware, this research is just about being a bit tired. This disorder apparently affects "more than a third" of Japanese people!
     
    Jennifer J, BurnA and Battery Muncher like this.
  5. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Likes:
    13,006
    Just read the thing in full. The PEM test is kind of interesting.

    I sound like a broken record, but again, I urge scepticism when it comes to "brain dysfunction" models of our illness. They suffer from many of the same problems as traditional psychological explanations.

    The whole model is based on the premise that our fatigue arises entirely in the brain. The underlying reasoning is that "there's nothing wrong with the body, therefore it must be in the brain". Where have we heard that kind of faulty reasoning before?

    This model also shares with its psychosomatic brethren an obsession with the symptom of fatigue, to the exclusion of all others. If you try to consider the full complement of symptoms that make up ME, brain dysfunction models start to look less and less impressive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

    Messages:
    2,789
    Likes:
    9,133
    Toronto
    Not to mention also, the 'motivation' word I find problematic. As I had less and less energy to apply to my activities of daily living I found that physically I had motivational issues. Trouble getting up to get on with things --but my psychological motivation was not an issue.

    One needs to be careful to distinguish lest some 'well meaning' but completely oblivious practitioner see this as a sign of fatigue= depression.
    Way to easy to jump to that conclusion.
     
    Jennifer J, Woolie and Hutan like this.
  7. Battery Muncher

    Battery Muncher Senior Member

    Messages:
    620
    Likes:
    1,700
    Yes, this immediately jumped out at me when I read the abstract.

    I don't know what definition they are using, but this is so broad as to be completely useless
     
  8. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    My thing thats really got my mind going is that the disease process in ME that causes POTS Hypovolemia directly attributed to Ron David's theory of Mitochondrial dysfunction.

    So can mitochondrial absorption issues from glycolosis and the citric acid cycle directly be corelated to the Autonomic dysfunction and neurological manifestations of ME?

    I have read that Mito diseases main symptom is Encephalomylietis but is this whole POTS Autonomic Dysfunction and Brain Inflamation a separate beast or all in the same pot?

    I wonder cause almost every ME patient I know has increased symptoms after exercion some more than others.

    So by correcting the Mito problem do you correct the illness?

    Or by dealing with the Autonomic Nervous system do you correct the illness.

    Is it coming from the GUT, Brain or the Mitochondria?
     
  9. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    Also what about the Endocrine dysfunction as well?
     
  10. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes:
    21,417
    Naviaux writes:

    CDR = cell danger response

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724913002390

    CDR in ME/CFS is still hypothetical.
     
    Justin30 likes this.
  11. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    I remember reading the full article. I have a question though......

    Cause I think it is valid.....this area of the brainstem do you think its permanently damaged, malfunctioning or toxified?

    ME as originally presented by ramsay said neurological which is brain and brainstem. Thats how the WHO Classified ME as a neurological condition.

    I am head is really buzzing with this stuff.
     
  12. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,409
    Likes:
    2,396
    I think malfunctioning and probably toxified. If it was permenently damaged I could not have improved the way I did.
     
    Justin30 likes this.
  13. JamBob

    JamBob Senior Member

    Messages:
    182
    Likes:
    725
    I'd be surprised if it didn't affect 80% of the population. The people work such long hours, the kids have to go to juku (night school) after they've been at school all day and study late into the night. I worked there for a while and all day long my colleagues would be complaining "しんどい しんどい" - "I'm tired, I'm tired". Chronic fatigue (not CFS/ME) could be the national disease.
     
  14. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    Do you think the immune system is attacking it?

    Can you describe your symptom cluster.
     
  15. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,409
    Likes:
    2,396
    Yes I do and I think it is a necessary attack to prevent worse. The problem is the attack can be to strong.
     
  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,249
    Likes:
    33,552
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I completely agree with these points. It seems far too many researchers are ignoring far too much of the evidence. Its the streetlight effect. They find it easy to research in specific areas, so ignore everywhere else.

    I have started to say it more and more: fatigue is irrelevant. Its like ignoring cancer so you can research pain, with a goal to developing a better pain therapy to cure cancer. Its great for pain research, but it won't cure cancer.

    PEM testing might be useful though. We need alternatives to the 2 day CPET.
     
    Jennifer J, paul80, Scarecrow and 8 others like this.
  17. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    @alex3619 so you think the utimate problem is in the brain?
     
  18. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes:
    1,272
    If the attack is to strong than that would likely be damage then correct?

    If this is the cases then damage to the brain and brainstem would got right nack to what they said early on an infectios trigger causes an Ecephalopathy or Encephalomylietis (both of these are the main symptoms in Mito diseases).

    But only one mito disease has an infectious trigger and its an ecephopathy.
     
  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,249
    Likes:
    33,552
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I think aspects of the problem are in the brain. Whether its primary or secondary is still unproven. The brain is very vulnerable to immune and metabolic effects, for example. These systems are all loops that point back to each other. Where is the start of a circle?
     
    Justin30 likes this.
  20. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Likes:
    13,006
    I agree, @alex3619. The brain is involved in every sensation we feel, of course. But is the cause of our problems a dysfunction in our brain? Or is the brain responding completely normally to a malfunction involving some other body system?

    The second is the simpler explanation, I feel, and the one more likely to be able to make contact with all the diversity of symptoms we experience.
     
    Mij, mango, Valentijn and 3 others like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page