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From Bedbound to Fit and Able in 14 Days: Effects of the Amazonian Medicine Kambo on a CFS Patient

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Hip, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I agree with that point: there is a definite risk involved in ME/CFS patients, who already have a weak constitution anyway, trying a very potent substance like kambo. There have been a small number of deaths associated with kambo use, so anyone considering taking kambo is to an extent entering uncharted territory. I certainly would not advise ME/CFS patients to take kambo. I am recording my experiments with taking kambo and dermorphin for ME/CFS from a scientific interest perspective.

    Having said that, the kambo.me forum is full of Western people experimenting with kambo (albeit often in the context of an interest in indigenous peoples' spiritual perspectives on healing, rather than an understanding of biochemistry). In the Amazon, kambo is extensively and regularly used by indigenous peoples not just for its medicinal effects, but also as a tool to improve eyesight and reactions when the tribe go hunting.

    I myself have been extremely cautious, and have only taken very low dose of kambo so far, doses of around a fifteenth of the full kambo dose.

    Since Jox started taking kambo on a weekly basis, he has remained in remission for a year now. When he began kambo, he was bedbound. That of course is data from only one person, but the story grabbed my attention.
     
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    YES! The potential "kill you" part of the equation is the one that needs to be emphasized, loud and clear. Hip, being the analytical genius that he is, is probably one of the only people capable of pulling off this kind of self-experimentation. Everyone else should NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
     
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  3. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    So it's more like an ongoing treatment, any one application of which has the chance of killing you. <yikes> Having the potential to die on a weekly basis sounds like a very risky proposition, but I suppose if one gets familiar with the process, dosage, etc., perhaps the risk is a little bit reduced. Still, it seems like one miscalculation, one stronger batch, etc. could have disastrous consequences.

    Can't say I'm not intrigued by his results, though like you say it's just one person so far. Speaking of neurofeedback, I once had a similar reaction to what you report about the kambo, where I was vomiting and expelling everything in my system all night. It was definitely triggered by the NF and it just never stopped until I was totally cleaned out. After that, the afternoon hypoglycemic attacks I had been getting for the past two years were gone, apparently also having had a neurological basis. So I'm the last person to doubt the possible effectiveness of neurobiological interventions, just saying that so far, while intriguing, the kambo sounds very potentially risky. Would like to hear more experiences or more from Jox himself - does he post on the kambo forum about his remission?
     
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think if you use the proper Amazonian Indian technique of administering kambo via skin burns, there is no danger of overdose; the impression I get is that the burns limit the amount of kambo getting into the body. Jox uses the proper burn method to take kambo every week.

    If you start snorting kambo powder, then sure, you have to be careful with dose, because I expect you could easily snort too high a dose. Snorting is not recommend by the Indians anyway, because as I mentioned, the Indians say that snorting kambo can precipitate what they call the "frog's disease", whereas the burn method is safe.

    You can read Jox's six threads on his kambo treatment for ME/CFS here: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

    Jox is keen to get other ME/CFS patients to consider this kambo treatment, as for him it has been miraculous, but he says he says most people don't seem interested.
     
  5. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I've been reading those, thanks. Glad to know he's gotten some improvement - his symptoms and list of things he has tried is very similar to what I'm sure a lot of us have done, including IV drips, IV H202, sauna, etc. - so like you say, he sounds legit. Maybe I'm reading too closely, but the actual results don't actually sound as miraculous as at first, with him saying he's basically out of it and in pain for the first 2 days, 35% better on day 3, feels good on days 4 and 5, then starts going downhill again on day 6, whereupon he starts all over again. Again, glad if he's had some improvement, but so far, in its current form, it doesn't sound worth the effort and risks, tbh. Maybe when the protocol or substance is refined more to be more effective with less risk it would be more attractive. Getting more people to try it would increase the user base of info/experience, of course, but not quite sure I want to be a guinea pig with something so apparently unpleasant, not to mention potentially lethal!
     
  6. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Bye the bye - I understand people wanting to give more warnings - but I think Hip pretty much outlined really well the possible dangers with regards to what he was doing. As Sushi says I too would be reluctant to try anything that relied on me measuring out, having to check, double check, check again and then have a break and check again. We know our limitations especially when it comes to cognitive issues. I'd have to get Hip to do it for me - I smile at the thought of a queue of MEers at his door.......
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What Jox is saying is that he found a single dose of kambo creates a significant improvement in his ME/CFS symptoms — an improvement that is sustained for 5 days without needing any extra kambo at all. So Jox gets 5 days of feeling very well from one single kambo dose. After 5 days, the beneficial effects of this single kambo dose begin to wear off, and Jox noted that his ME/CFS symptoms started to return. However, Jox found that when he took another kambo dose, he got another 5 days of feeling very well. That is why Jox now takes kambo weekly, in order to sustain his ME/CFS remission.

    So assuming that other ME/CFS patients respond equally well to kambo, then if you take kambo once every 5 days, you are going to be feeling very well all the time. If you take a dose of kambo once every 7 days, then clearly you are going to feel good for most of the week, but may have a couple of days a week when you feel a little under par.


    The other point Jox made was that the very first time he took kambo, in his very first week, he noted that the symptomatic improvements were a little slower to appear, as you might expect, as he was still bedbound at that point. However, by the second week, after his second dose of kambo, things then really started to pick up.
     
  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Can you link to that post? I haven't read through all of them yet, but I'm not seeing that. I see his detailed account of his effects on Feb 7 of this year, where he describes it this way:

    And then even just a few days ago on April 24, he summarizes it this way:

    "More or less, in my case is the same, I feel better for a couple of days, first 2 is worst, day 3 is better, day 4 is best, and then it goes back..."

    which sounds basically the same as he said in Feb: feels basically like crap for 2 days, slightly better the third, okay day 4, then day 5 & 6 going downhill again. That doesn't sound like a miracle to me, lol. Where does he say he feels better for 5 days straight? I'm not finding that yet, thanks.
     
  9. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    hello hip

    fascinating story! many thanks for your time writing down all these details.

    My first idea was, why would you not try low dose naltrexone instead if you want to rev up the mu-opioid and delta opioid receptors? Instead of risking to overstimulate them with dermorphin, you will increase the numbers of receptors and in the end make more endorphins yourself. It will take about a year to get your immune cells fully recovered with receptors. All the benefits you mentioned (apart from the psoriasis which I don't have and the chronic sinusitis which is still there), happened to me too.

    I guess the reason why you developed a little psychosis, is because the number of endorphins diminished again and the brain was looking for a new equilibrium in the negative way. With LDN the same effect happens but the opposite way. Because you always increase the dosage, you will feel a rush and then the brain will find its equilibrium but it will never have less endorphins than before. I never felt flat, only more bright after a year.

    The only real downside LDN had for me, was the huge headache as if my brain was made of crystal glass that could break at any moment. I guess it was the inflammation that was healed. It lasted a few months.
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    jeffrez

    The impression I have is that that Jox's day 1 to 6 account that you quoted above refers to his initial week of kambo, because that is what I was asking him about. Though I will clarify this with him.

    Here I asked Jox the following question:

    "Am I right in understanding that, with your kambo treatment, you changed from being a bedbound CFS patient, that presumably was too deeply fatigued to get out of bed for most of the day, to a much healthier person that was able to go out of the house, and go about their normal daily business with only relatively minor symptoms and relatively minor fatigue levels? Is that a fair and correct description of the improvements you attained from kambo?"​

    Jox replied saying:

    "Yes, this is right."​


    And here Jox details the improvements in symptoms he gets from kambo:

    "Headaches — almost gone.
    Sinus and throat irritation and infections — completely gone.
    Lymphatic node pains — gone after 5 months of treatments.
    Cold sweats — gone.
    Joint pain — gone.
    Irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) / diarrhea — two steps forward one back.
    Blurry vision — gone.
    Insomnia — from two prescription medication I take only one, this is a great improvement.
    Muscle pain — gone.
    Fatigue, or feeling of heaviness — I feel good until 7 pm ( this is not bad for me at all).
    Tongue coating — no heavy coating, but not good.
    Memory problem — great for few days, only to slightly goes worst before next treatment.
    Body odor — kambo will take it out, In my case it represent how bad I am doing, and now don't have bad body odor."

     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Hi Marlène

    Thanks very much for that suggestion. I have tried LDN on a number of occasions, taking around 4.2 mg daily before bed. I find it hard to notice any benefits from LDN, though equally, I don't experience any negative symptoms from LDN, apart from a slight increase in anhedonia and emotional flatness. Though I have never taken LDN for more than around 6 weeks.

    Do you think I should try LDN for longer? You say it takes a year to get your immune cells fully recovered with receptors.

    I do find I get mild benefits and a mild mood boost from taking D-phenylalanine or germanium sesquioxide, which both boost endorphins. I want to try Garum armoricum at some point too, as this also boosts endorphins.
     
  12. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Ok you are someone who does not react badly to LDN, interesting. I have to verify if LDN is still an option then.
    D-phenylalaline had the same effect to me, when I used it sporadically, I didn't notice much apart from less sharp pain. However I bought myself a few boxes so I decided to finish them ... and after a while I would get the giggles at the end of the day.
     
  13. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    It would be interesting to know if Jox tried LDN. When I took it, I developed severe inflammation, resulting in carpal tunnel in both my wrists and possibly even triggering autoimmune thyroid condition. If he experienced good results, that would be a clear indication for me personally to stay away from the kambo.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    jeffrez

    How an ME/CFS patient responds to kambo might be predicted by their reaction to regular opioid pain medications. If you scan this very interesting thread:

    Narcotic (Opioid) Pain Medications Relieve Some of my Neurological ME/CFS Symptoms

    you will see that many ME/CFS patients have discovered that pain medications such as oxycodone and hydrocodone (which stimulate the mu-opioid receptors) can noticeably reduce their ME/CFS symptoms. My hunch is that many of the apparent benefits of kambo for ME/CFS derive from its dermorphin content: dermorphin is a highly potent mu-opioid drug.
     
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  15. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    I did not respond to narcotic medication at all but I guess the reason is I had almost no more opioid receptors left.
     
  16. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    To feel good for a week, I think burns and 15 mins of vomiting+diarrhea are worth it. It's safe with the burn method and cheap. However, like jeffrez quoted, it seems he only gets 2 great days plus 1 good day from it and 1 ok day, and has to go through the first day of pain and first night not being able to sleep much. I don't think I could tolerate the other symptoms during the 15 minutes either.
     
  17. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Hip, I think you deserve the good sense award for looking into kambo’s active ingredients. The link confirmed what I suspected, that the giant leaf frog is also known as a poison frog and kambo is known as a toxin as well as a medicine. It has been hypothesized that people with ME clear toxins poorly, so I am not too keen on ingesting a toxin.

    When you described kambo’s powerful purgative effects, I wondered if it helped by temporarily reducing the number of harmful microbes in the digestive system. Have you considered that “Dermaseptin - a potent antimicrobial for both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria” might be part of it’s beneficial effect?
     
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  18. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Little Bluestem - funnily enough I was thinking too it may be the purging effect of the kambo. Upsetting the bad bacteria and lowering the number maybe the key, and then feeling rough after 7 days maybe them just settling back into their cosy beds.?
     
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  19. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    Hip, you really sound like you know what you are doing, and thank you for reporting back with such clarity.

    I would say from professional and personal experience that psychosis is easier to induce than it is to predict its endpoint, and sometimes psychosis that originates from the ingestion of a substance or drug doesn't resolve when that substance is withdrawn.
     
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  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I agree, the slightly toxic components of kambo may actually be doing more harm than good in ME/CFS patients (or in anyone else for that matter), and this is one reason why I wanted to figure out which might be the beneficial components of kambo, and ideally just take those.

    I guess the antibacterial and antimicrobial actions of the dermaseptin family of peptides may be part of kambo's beneficial effect. Some members of the dermaseptin family are also antiviral for herpes simplex.
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.

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