Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Freshveggies methylation journey

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by freshveggies, May 27, 2012.

  1. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    HI, I am doing Fred's protocol and would like to keep a journal so everything is in one spot and I can have feedback. I first got diagnosed with CFS when I was 23. The best the Dr. could do was offer anti-depressants. From there I went on to have 3 children and was noticable more tired by the 3rd. I have been doctoring for the last 5 years trying to figure out what is wrong. I even mentioned to a doctor 4 years ago that I think I need to check out methylation issues. He dismissed it and just wanted to chelate the heavy metals. I think methylation is at the core of my body not functioning right. My health has declined at a fast rate the last 5 years.


    Here is my first test:

    I did Health Diagnostics test: March 2012
    Gutathione oxidized .51 range .16-.50
    Glutathione redued 3.3 range 3.8-5.5
    s-adenosylmethionine 237 range 221-256
    s-adensoylhomocysteiine 56.8 range 38-49
    folic acid derviates
    5-CH3-THF 15.0 range 8.4-72.6
    10-Formyl-THF 4.3 range 1.5-8.2
    5-Formyl-THF 4.90 range 1.2-11.70
    THF 1.15 range 06-6.80
    Folic Acid 18.5 range 8.9-24.6
    Folic Acid (WB) 17-3 range 9.0-.35.5
    Folic Aci active RBC 417 range 400-1500

    I started with the b-complex a couple of days ago.

    Today:
    200mcg potassium upon waking
    200 mcg potassium with breakfast
    200 mcg potassium with dinner
    (will titrate up as needed.)
    1 douglas b-complex with metafolin
    A-10,000 IU--Thompson
    4:1 oil by Body Bio
    ascorbic acid - 9,000mg
    magnesium chloride oil
    magnesium sulfate iv-1.5mg at bed
    E complex by NOW
    3/4 tab Metafolate--3 x day and will tytrate up as needed
    1/16 tab adb m12
    1/2 tab mb12
    Phosphatidylcholine iv push every other day. 500mg
    take unisom at bed time but doesn't seem to help

    (not taking zinc yet until I get saliva test done on Monday) No D today and no calcium. seeing if they affect my sleep. I fell asleep around 10:00 last night and woke at midnight and did not sleep the rest of the night. I need sleep very bad and it just doesn't come. Hoping that the methylation will fix that.

    yesterday was similar, but the first day on the mb12. I noticed alertness which was good and I was having these symptoms: Achy muscles,, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, I took more methylfolate at lunch and I noticed these were so much beter. I also noticed that my chest muscles are not so tight either. I can breath better. That might be from potassium.

    It is 2 1/2 hours after breakfast and I am noticing lightheadedness so I will take more metafolate now.
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes:
    866
    Hi, fresh.

    I'm glad that you ran the Health Diagnostics panel. Your results indicate that you have glutathione depletion and are suffering from oxidative stress. You also have a partial methylation cycle block, and it appears that the flow in your transsulfuration pathway is low. This could be due to low B2 and/or B6, so I'm glad you are taking a B-complex supplement. Your folates actually look pretty good, so I suspect that the partial methylation cycle block in your case is primarily due to the functional B12 deficiency, caused by the glutathione depletion. Bringing up the methyl B12 may help you more than bringing up methylfolate.

    I hope this treatment will help you. I do recommend working with a physician while on methylation treatment.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Thank you Rich, I am working with a physician, but they did not inform me of potassium def & folic acid def, both of which I believe i have as I have seen great improvements taking both potassium and methylfolate. My doctor had me on your 5 step protocol and I have been sick too long to keep getting road blocks.

    I have been feeling pretty hopeless until I found this site. I am very hopeful with Fred's protocol and will fill my doctor in on what I am doing soon. Just getting some Sleep would make me feel better.

    Tomorrow I will up the methyl b to 3/4 tab and the adb to 1/8th.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Freshveggies,

    You might want to check out the Jarrowe TMG crystals. They allow a careful titration before you know how you will react. For many it takes the hard edge off the energy and make sleep easier at first. It often makes things brighter for a few days beforee fading into more comfort. Many find it does nothing perceivable at all but for others it is a critical cofactor.
     
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  5. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Thank you Fred. I see iherb is out of stock. I do have the l-carnitine on order, potassium chloride and the enzymatic mb12 on order too. Should I be ordering other vitamins to add in along the way?

    I had a really good day yesterday. Sunday night I slept for 6 hours. I just wonder what made that happen. I was able to do 1.5g of magnesium iv push before bed. I had good energy and more clear thinking. It felt so good ot not have the dizziness along with the other nagging symptoms. I also noticed I did not feel overly stimulated and my head felt kind of calm.

    I took 1/8 adb b12
    3/4 mb12

    I took 1 full methylfolate in am and at noon. I took 3/4 at dinner. I think I should take a full one 3 x a day.

    Last night I could not get to sleep and maybe slept 3 1/2 hours. I also did the 1.5 mg mag iv push before bed. I noticed when I got up this am I was dizzy so I think I need more methylfolate

    today I took 1/3 abd b12
    1 tab mb12
    added 15mg zinc

    I am having major constipation issues and wondering if it is the potassium gluconate and maybe when I get the potassium citrate it might help? I have struggled with this my whole life, but it has gotten worse since I started this protocol. I took 1600mg potassium yesterday. I also upped my ascorbic acid from 6,000 to 10,000 with no luck.
     
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    764
    USA
    Hi Freshveggies ;

    I've had some of these symptoms as well, so I'll bring up what is helping so far. With the methylation supps., I found that increasing the folate slowed my bowels and decreased my sleep. But I really need it for so many reasons; endothelial tissue strength, epithelial tissue strength, and most certainly energy production.

    I'm finding that zinc is helping my insomnia and constipation. It is taking a while to improve these life long conditions, though. I'm at about 2 3/4 months with daily zinc supplementation.

    Zinc and folate together, perform many functions, so it could be that if one is missing, the other may not work as well.

    Although each day gets much better, it'll probably be a few more months before I see more predictable results in the sleep and the bowel function. Part of the reason is that I may have been bunged up with excess copper, for instance. Excess copper may be one of the causes of insomnia and constipation.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Fresh veggies,

    It could be the lack of carnitine causing the constipation. The adb12 and carnitine can be a powerful influence on peristalsis. Also, when potassium gets low, constipation and in the worst case, paralysed illium and terminal (literally) constipation. There are so many possible causes that it is still rather tangled.
     
  8. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Thanks for the feed
    Thanks for the feedback. I feel that the folate helps so many of my symtpoms and it is hard to decrease it. I will continue to add in the zinc too. Glad you are seeing improvements.
     
  9. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Hi Fred,

    Hi Fred, Thanks for the reply. How would you suggest adding in the carnitine when I get it? I ordered the jarrow liquid. I should have this any day. Also I am at 1mg mb12 and 1/4 abd 12. Do you suggest any changes with those or should I just hold it there and add in the carnitine?

    I haven't yet ordered anything else. I can order the TMG ---do you recommend ordering anything new with that? LIke SAM-e

    I will also get tthe enzymatic b12 tomorrow and have not tried that. Just not sure what to do from here?

    I don't want to make too many changes at once.

    I do not feel overstimulated or too much energy at this time..

    Thank you
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Freshveggies,

    At this point the 1/4 adb12 (if 10mg) is quite ample. You might go to 1 entire tablet once a week and see if it is any difference. Adb12 is quite long lasting. Increasing the mb12 to 2mg after you get the ET tomorrow ought to be fine. I would order the tmg so it will be here when you need it. The carnitine could be the accelerator pedal, or not. I would suggest starting with a single drop, 3.3mg.. If that isn't too much keep doubling each day until you get to an amount you can measure with measuring spoons. This is most likely. The other posibility is that you will have to keep cutting in half each day until comfortable and then start increasing by 50% or so each day. A typical dose is maybe 250-1000mg daily. The change in mb12 won't affect this carnitine thing. Try that for a day and then if all is well add the carnitine thwe next day.
     
  11. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Thank you Fred, Just want to clarify. I am to increase the mb12 to 2mg after I get he Enzymatic therapy brand. How do I do this? Do i do 2 ET b12 that would be jumping from 1 jarrow to 2 ET. Or do I mixed the jarrow and the ET? Sorry to for the questions. I like to do it precisely.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Freshveggies,

    It NEEDS to be exact, img of each. Going to two mgs probably won't make too much difference but feeling that difference could give you some clues to follow towards healing.
     
  13. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Ok. 1 mg jarrow and 1mg ET.

    Thank you. I will start that as soon as I get it and then give myslef a couple of days to see how I do on that new dose and then add in the drop of carnitine.

    Thank you,
     
  14. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    HI, I noticed that my methylfolate was wearing off before bed as I noticed some dizziness and lightheadedness. I did not take any as I do not know if that would be a problem taking before bed with my sleep issues. I woke up this am quite dizzy and took 2 --total 1600mcg. at 7:40. It is now 9:30 and I am still dizzy. I started on this all on Sat and the immediate affects I noticed on methylfolate was that my dizziness went away. Did I take enough methylfolate? Should I take more? I also took 1500mg potassium because I am so constipated that I thought I should just get mroe in me. It appears I only get 1000mg though food. I have been very low on veges and eat meat and oil. I know I need to probably add in somthing else. I did eat some sweet potato with my breafast. I gain weight just by looking at carbs.

    I did add more IV magnesium last night. This could possible cause me to need more methylfolate?
    would I need more m12? I don't have my ET brand yet to add in another m12. That is the plan when I get it.

    I added another 800mcg methylfolate at 10:00 we shall see how I do. Please give feedback too. Thank you.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi FreshVeggies,

    are you taking the adb12. you need to be started on the adb12 before the carnitine. as regards folates, titrate by effect. if more doesn't help more, and it may be noticable in hours or days, then it isn't the mfolate. those will usually be on the list of low folate symptoms. Most people find they have 2 or 3 "regulars" that they can use for signposts with a little practice. You are still below the typical low dose of being enough in the absence of paradoxical folate deficiency.
     
  16. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    I am taking 1/4 adb 12. I haven't started the carnitine yet. I think it is in the mail today. Most lot of the symptoms went away the first and 2nd day. Now they are back. It is noon. Should I take the ET b12 now or wait until tomorrow when I can take the Jarrow b12 along with it. I took 1 jarrow b12 this am with the adb? I am just not sure why these symtpoms came back. These are the symptoms:

    Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, increase irritabliltiy.

    These group three deficiencies fall into this: Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12

    So maybe by tomorrow when I add the ET b12 into the mix along with what I am taking (Jarrow B12 and the adb 12 )it will be better. Sounds like if the increase of methylfolate doesn't help, I might need more b12?

    If I need to take mb12 can I take it later in the day? It is now 4:30 here. Well I decided to take 3/4 of a jarrow mb12 at 5:00 and started to feel a little better with my brain --dizzyness. Not gone yet. What does this tell me? Suggestions with doses of ET b12 and mb12 tomorrow.

    I have only been taking 1 b-complex because I never wanted to take b's later that at breakfast. Should I take one with dinner?


    at 2:00 I added 3200mcg of methylfolate and it is 4:00 and I am still not better with these symptoms. I am actually way more dizzy with vertigo and hard to walk. The methylfolate is helping with my longtime edema.

    I just rememberd that the last 2 days I added in Zinc. Could this cause the symptoms to return?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Freshveggies,

    Most lot of the symptoms went away the first and 2nd day. Now they are back. It is noon.

    THis is most probably methylation startup, cell formation startup and low potassium and/or low Metafolin. It may tale a few days to work through it. That mb12 faded so fast means that your kidneys are working well most likely and that you are liekly very low on mb12. When you retain perhaps 1% a day of what you absorb it takes a while to build up. The carnitine I would suggest you start very low, taking a few grains out of the capsule and trying that on an empty stomach 30 minutes or more befroe food.

    The dizzy and such can often intensify before receding. It may be an artifact of neurological brightening that all these neurological things are more intense and are felt more. That is normal in this. The things so affected typically heal fastest too. What is NOT normal are the specific symptoms of methylfolate and potassium deficiencies as listed. However, it is important to stabilize the mb12, adb12 potassium and metafolin before adding carnitine and other things which will each disrupt the balance in their own way thereby confusing what is going on.

    Adb12 may last for days or more. When I was healing the first year I kept a sublingual of either brand in my mouth one after another after the first month. That was the only way I didn;t have fallback in hours over and over. Sometimes the Methyfolatge is a little tougher to recognize and longer to know you have corrected it, a few days sometimes, than the potassium which shows in hours.

    Zinc is often deficienct and serves to restrain the rate of healing, then when zinc is increased, healing increases and something else becomes deficient. This is why I have no simplified protocol because a person hits one induced deficiency after another if they don't take all the basics up front and often never figure out why things didn't work.
     
  18. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Thank you Fred, that all makes sense. I thought back on why might the dizziness, lightheadedness come back and Tues night I had a large salad for dinner. I think it hit me like a brick the next day. I remember even felling a little dizzy by 9pm Tues evening. Last night I took 3 methylfolate with my meal and for veggies I had half an avocado with 3 small piece broccoli. I woke dizzy today. Yesterday I had a great day --was not dizzy when I woke up and all day. For dinner the night before I had only half an avocado with dinner. I am seeing that I might be extra sensitive with veges.

    So this am since I woke dizzy I took 5 methylfolate hoping that will be enough to stop the storm.

    I did take an extra mb12 after lunch yesterday. I am taking an extra one this am to start with too. I think I will try taking more as you have indicated you did that.

    I will get stabalized on the b's, methylfolate and potassium before I add int he carnitine.

    Thanks again.
     
  19. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    Not as much energy today and I woke up dizzy. I took 5 methylfolate for breakfast along with 2mb12, 1/4 adb 12, 1 ET b12, 2500 potassium and then cofactors. I decided at 9:30 am to take another mb12 and 2 methylfolate. I was feeling better by lunch and then I took my vitamins before I ate and got a real bad stomach ach and headache in my temples and eyes. The stomach ache went away about 45 min after eating and the head ache has lasted. I took 3 methylfolate for lunch with 2500 potassium and more cofactors. Then at 1:30 I took another mb12. I will see how the rest of the day goes. I still don't have a great handle on all the symtpoms. Tomorrow I willl try adding in more mb12

    These are the symptoms I get with low potassium. I pretty much had all of these before starting the protocol. I checked my labs and my potassium has run low between 3.9-4.2. These are the symtpoms I have had for years:

    IBS Steady constipation, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, neck muscles, Muscle weakness, Increased pulse rate,

    My low folate symptoms are: Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Increase irritability
     
  20. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Likes:
    6
    I woke up dizzy today again. It has gone away with more folate, but I am wondering it might be related to my PC (phosphatidylcholine push). I do have heavy metals and at some time want to add in ACZ Zeolite to my treatment). I didn't eat any veges last night except for a little avocado. When I add in more mb12 throughout the day, do I need to take an ET b12 along with each mb12?
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page