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Fred's protocol need help

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Draves, Aug 14, 2015.

  1. Draves

    Draves

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    Hi everybody!

    hope your are doing well or at least better than yesterday! I've got a few questions regarding Fred's protocol. Just to be clear I haven't done 23andme test yet because I don't have money for it, but it's on to do list. So basically I'm not 100% sure I have MTFHR mutation.

    My health problems started 3 years ago when I drastically changed my lifestyle. I did sports all my life, but eating crap, suddenly I have decided to start eating vegetables. A lot of vegetables. Plate of vegetable with every meal which translates into 3-4 pounds of vegetables everyday. On top of that I have cut my calories to 1500, exercising 3-4 hours a day. Dosing excess zinc of 80 mg a day. 5 month into this protocol I have completely break out, figuring out I have serious health issues.

    I started to look for reasons, tried a lot of treatments and some of them work and help me cope and some were one-way road. Things I know deal with for sure.

    1. Histamine Intolerance
    2.Salicylate Sensitivity
    3. Chronically high cortisol as confirmed by ASI. I believe this one is linked to my chronically lower calorie intake, as a t first when I went from 1500 cal a day to 2000 it get better, but now it stalls even despite consistent use of Seriphos 1 year+.

    I would love to increase my fat intake as I'm at the moment eating only 40g a day which is very little for my size, but I can't. The reason for that is anytime I try some extra fat or oil in meal I get badly depressed and headache, sometimes itching too. Only thing I can tolerate is organic lard, but just one TBSP a day. Anymore gives me headache and itch.All these experiments I did with meals containing veggies

    Few days back I went to the Boulevard with my family to get some food, I was prepared to pay a price for histamine but oddly enough nothing happened. The meal I had was histamine bomb, even extra cheese in it and after eating it, I had no headache, bad mood or itching at all. There were no vegetables in here and at that moment my last veggie intake was probably 6 hour back or so. Day after that I decided to made an experiment and to not eat any vegetables at all. I was able to tolerate 5 TBSP of lard without symptoms or they were quite mild, probably could do more, but I was too full to try that. Also I have noticed after 5000 of sublingual b12 my bowels sink to the bottom. My bowels always floats but after b12 they sink (and that's a good thing no?).

    To sum it all up all these experiments with vegetables and b12 lead me to believe I have problem with methylation, so I have decided to give a Fredd's protocol a shot.Here are the questions.

    1. If I don't have problem with methylation can protocol mess me up, or do any harm?
    2.If I cut Metafolin and b12 to quarters what I do with the rest I won't use at the moment? Won't it get less efective because of cut?
    3.would you recommend to keep the same vegetable intake or lower say to one plate a day. Not sure if I won't stop veggies completely. Moreover I'd have to sooner or later supplement some other minerals, to supplement what I would cut off.

    Any suggestions are welcome.

    David
     
  2. Draves

    Draves

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    When starting the protocol another few questions popped up in my mind.

    1. What's the correct ratio of Methylfolate to Methylb12. Can anybody share their experience?
    2.What's the correct ratio of ADb12 to methylb12?
    3.I remember reading about some member I think it has been @ahmo that she let dissolves methylfolate sublingually thereby reducing the dosage she needs. How is that done? Same way like b12?
    4.Furthermore I would like to ask regarding Methylb12. Do I have to place it under upper lip? I have heard (don't know where) that's not good for teeth so lower lip would be preferable.

    If you know at least one answer to any of my questions I would be grateful if you can share your experience. World of methylation is whole new concept for me, especially because English is not mine first language it's sometimes hard to grasp.

    thank you all
     
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    The ration seems to often be about 1:1. that's what I'm on, but it differs with others. You might check the guides in my signature for ratios. There's also a Methylation for Dummies link.

    AdB12: I don't think there's a particular ration. Fred's last suggestion was to take it once a week, away from MB12, 30-50mg. I use 40mg.

    Yes, putting the folate into my gum line reduced my need by 1/2. My next order will be for tablets, will also use them the same way.

    MB12 in upper or lower gums. I didn't have tooth problems, others did. Once my dose was stable, I switched to transdermal. There's a thread, transdermal B12. There's a commercial B12 oil from Australia, but I've been happy with DIY, using Bluebonnet B12 drops, mixed with a bit of body lotion or coconut oil (presumably any form of grease), much cheaper. Good luck;)
     
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  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Draves, it sounds like you changed your lifestyle too extremely. That's a lot of exercise for so few calories, plus WAY WAY WAY too much zinc, especially if you don't need it.

    IMO you may have simply driven yourself to exhaustion simply with calorie restriction and too much physical exertion, aside from unbalancing your body with too much of a pretty powerful mineral. Plus, if you're coming from a crappy diet into calorie restriction, that could exacerbate any imbalances you had before you started taking zinc. From what I've learned, food intolerances can develop from nutrient imbalances, too.

    Based on my experience as well as what you posted, my suggestion for you is to do a NORMAL healthy diet (i.e., a diet that does not restrict any macronutrients or food groups) like The Perfect Health Diet (PHD) or at least 3 months. No supplements except maybe the few in the guidelines in the PHD book. Then see how you feel and what other supplements you might want to add in from there.

    You can get the PHD book on Amazon.com.

    At this point it's doubtful if you need methylation so much as you just need some real, healthy food at a calorie level that can sustain optimal health. 1500 calories per day for an extended period of time is low even for someone who doesn't do much of anything. There was a time in my life when I was in my 20's / early 30's when a great, sensible diet like PHD could possibly have solved most of my problems. That could be the case with you. In any event, you should try to figure that out.

    If you can exercise 3 hours per day for months at at time, then you don't have CFS, and probably not methylation problems. Even when I was young and felt my best and was in one of my periods of eating healthy I could never tolerate that kind of exertion. It's likely just need to change your eating habits.

    Save yourself some $$$ and a lot of time, and try the PHD for a few months. Cut exercise back to a couple times per week for an hour or two at a time. Forget about complicating your life with methylation supps until you are relatively sure you need more help than a good, nutritious diet and a sensible exercise regimen can give you. @Freddd's protocol pretty much saved my life, but I really, really needed it. At this point, that is not at all clear that you do.

    My $0.02. :)

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
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  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Draves, I tend to agree with whodathunkit.

    A couple of other ideas - some people have issues with the folate in vegetables (Freddd is one). You could be reacting to the sulfur in certain vegetables. You could have leaky gut and have developed various food allergies/intolerances and are reacting to those.

    If getting back to a more normal diet and stopping zinc don't help, then perhaps you could pursue these other ideas.

    If you don't have a problem with methylation, yes, taking methylation supplements can overdrive your methylation cycle and make you feel worse.
     
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  6. Draves

    Draves

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    Kindly thank you all for your responses. The situations NOW is as follows. what I described at first post is mainly history.@ahmo thanks for the ideas. I think if I jump into protocol I try transdermal b12 after I establish my safe via oral route. By the way thank you for your guide on the manual it's perfect! So much work well put together... I tip my hat to you.

    1.I'm not taking any more supplements than Seriphos for 1year+ which help me cope with high cortisol levels.Zinc I haven't taken for 2years+. After excesssive supplementation of zinc I did brief rounds with Copper and Manganese to restore a levels litttle, after that I felt much better.

    2.I'm eating at the moment 2000 cal at the moment, but that's still not enough for me.I believe my maintenance is around 2500-700. Which I would gladly eat if it wouldn't be of terrible intolerance of literally anything when I eat it with vegetables. It's crazy! Today I have made another experiment and went to pizzeria with family. I had many high histamine foods and haven't had any symptoms, besides very minor water retention and one small sneeze. Only thing that resemble veggetable at my plates has been tomato sauce at pizza and maybe sprinkle of fresh herbs, but that's it. But everytime I just eat vegetables at home my intolerance and health terribly suffer. I thought veggies were supposed to be healthy LOL. The connection with sulfur really struck me, can anybody provide more info @caledonia ? I think it's pretty much safe to conclude that I have some kind problem with vegetables be it folinic acid or sulfur problem. Not sure sulfur problem can be responsible for all of this?

    3.I do not exercise at the moment, because simply I can't. If I do some weight lifting my shoulders afterwards get very tense I get anxious and deppresed. I always retest this every 8 months or so. Gentle yoga is what I do from time to time.

    @whodathunkit Idea about PHD is great as I was thinking that I could maybe lift my calories and include some extra food if I stop eating vegetables or at least limit them to one plate a day. I don't know what PHD says about vegetable intake so..
     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I am concerned that your cortisol levels continue to be high after 1+ years on Seriphos. 2-3 months of supplementation should be enough to lower cortisol. Have you ever been on an SSRI or SNRI antidepressant and changed dose or discontinued? Are you under a lot of constant stress?

    Check out the Free Thiol food list and eliminate those foods and supps. See if it helps you feel any better.
    http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/

    Certain vegetables are also higher in folate. There are many food lists, just google something like "foods high in folate".

    Try one thing at a time so you know what is doing is what.

    [/QUOTE]
     
  8. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Draves: PHD recommends veggies (green veggies, etc.) "to taste" but doesn't really count them in the overall calorie intake for the day because they tend to be low in carbs and in calories, generally speaking. Starches, saturated fat, protein, and fruit mostly make up the calorie count.

    I don't know how old you are, but based on what you've told us a good diet that doesn't skimp on any of the macronutrients (starches/carbs, fat, protein), you may be able to fix yourself without everything getting too complicated. Especially if you're still in your 20's or early 30's. I'm older and still found the switch to almost all saturated fat to be incredibly beneficial to how I feel.

    Also, as calendonia noted, it also sounds like you may have some gut dysbiosis (i.e., leaky gut). Years of crap food will do that to you. The PHD's emphasis on starches is very good for helping to fix gut problems, too. If three months on a really healthy diet can't fix your problems so you're at least 50% better than you are right now, that's when you might consider branching out to more supps to target specific problems (methylation, gut dysbiosis, etc.).
     
  9. Draves

    Draves

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    [/QUOTE]

    @caledonia I never took any kind of antidepressant at all. Whether I'm under a lot of constant stress, well that's hard to say, but I wouldn't say any more than other people are. I would probably say reason for my high cortisol levels is lower calorie intake as per calculator I should be eating around 2600-2900 kcal a day, while I'm eating only 2000. This theory seem especially likely to me as initially my cortisol levels have improved when I went from 1500-2000 calories a day.

    If eat mine regular diet (a lot of thiols) I can't go past 2k cal a day simple because I don't have how. Protein increase doesn't make any sense, I'm already eating plenty and I don't want to leach calcium from bones by necessarily eating more than I need. Only choices left are carbs and fat. More carbs than I'm eating now makes my blood sugar go mess and last but not least most importantly fat. I almost can't eat any fat if I eat the way I usually do. I get incredibly depressed when I try to add some extra fat to a diet I regularly eat.

    I have been looking at the list of low/high thiol foods you have provided and have realized that I have been completely rocking super high thiol diet for a few years (hence veggetable problems). So since yesterday morning I have completely switched to low thiol foods and it seems I do much better actually. Yesterday I'm pretty much sure I hit over 3000kcal with much more carbs (no blood sugars issues!) and most importantly much more fat (probably +70g of fat than my usual intake). I did not have any bad reaction besides little itch which I know is a histamine, but it wasn't nothing big. I'm in awe how easy it was for me to increase kcal intake on low thiol foods. Small itch as an only side effect isn't a big deal for me. Now I'd like to know why it seems to me, that I have thiol problem? Quick google tells me Amalgam. But asking mom she said she is 99% sure I never had any and if it was very briefly for milk teeth so I'm not sure mercury would be problem, at least it seems unlikely.

    By the way Caledonia I see you are from Ohio that's funny, my sister is leaving tomorrow to US, Ohio to study for a high school senior year. It's crazy, I will miss her a lot, but well I have heard Ohio is awesome place to stay at so I'm pretty much sure she will enjoy.

    @whodathunkit I'm 23. I took a look at PHD diet and it seems like I have been eating modified PHD for lat 3 years so. Last 3 years I actually ate super clean probably 95% of the year just vegetables, meat, fruit, starches. No improvement, or very little I'd say. I have noticed though that there may be connection with thiols, so now I will try to eat 700-800 more calories than I did (because now I can), on low thiols, PHD diet and see if there is any improvement.

    Few more things I'd like to ask regarding methylation.

    1.In the past when fooling around with methyl supplements I have noticed that anytime I try methylfolate or b12 I get one negative symptom and that's quite prominent back pain. Adrenals?

    2.Moreover and this is bit intimate-but I have lately notice my orgasm is very weak and getting weaker as the time passes, it almost feels like nothing, very unsatisfying. After b12 sensation improves to reasonable levels., not perfect but much better. Though this isn't a big deal right now. Sex problems are the last thing on my mind right now.

    thank you everybody for your responses
     
  10. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Is it tension or like muscle pain?

    In case you don't know, you need both methylfolate AND B12 together. If you try one and not the other that might be part of your problem. From what I've read the "ideal ratio" of methylfolate : B12 seems to be an individual kind of thing. I do well with gobs more B12 than methylfolate but others are different.
     
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  11. Draves

    Draves

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    It reminds me of tension. Now when I'm looking at it, the pain was probably not connected with supp (at least it seems like) but rather with fats/oil I have been ingesting after lowering vegetable intake. This is strange...if I don't get any veggetable at meal I can eat as much oil/fat I want, without the obvious symptoms (depression, migraine). Instead I have just one physical and that's back pain. Should I push through and ingest more calories (to get where I need to be) even despite back pain?

    Maybe I should get back to 2000 cal a day and just start protocol with my old diet. Moreover I'd like ask if any of you think all my health problems can be connected to plain old simple b12 deficiency? It's not like I don't eat meat, I do and lot., but I was thinking since I had biggest response from methylb12 maybe try to supplement just mb12 for a while to try and see? All this time I was eating plenty of folate rich vegetables which contain plenty of folate and little to no b12. Maybe diet induced deficiency of b12?

    @whodathunkit I remember reading somewhere you're from Australia right? :)
     
  12. Draves

    Draves

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  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    That's the kind of question I'm not qualified to (or really comfortable with) give advice or relate my experience on, beyond telling you to go see a doctor.

    But I'm still curious...where's the back pain (shoulders/upper back, thoracic region, low back, etc.). Does it only happen after you eat (within minutes or at most a few hours)?

    Regardless, as I said, I think this symptom is something you probably want to go get checked out by a doctor. It could be pancreas, gall bladder, or kidneys, all of which need to be ruled out or addressed before making any more changes. I was having some back pain problems recently related to weight loss that turned out to be gall bladder. I would get pain that felt like tension in my mid-thoracic region after eating a high-fat meal (I never eat just protein and fat, always a mix of foods). The pain was always accompanied by symptoms of indigestion (heartburn and nausea), but after doing a lot of reading/research, I learned that the back pain from both pancreas and gall bladder inflammation doesn't necessarily have to be accompanied by indigestion symptoms.

    If I was you I wouldn't "push through" on this one at all, since it seems to be fat/digestion related. You don't want to mess around with any gall bladder, pancreas, or kidney problems. Go get serious causes ruled out or addressed.

    Nope, I'm an American girl. @ahmo is the Aussie. But I'm an Anglophile and love the English language because it's so very fungible, and thus will use the colloquialisms of other English speaking countries as I find them and like them. :)

    Edited to add:
    I don't do well on B-complex because they all have some form of niacin in them, and supplemental niacin any form at all (niacinimide or what-have-you) is a big no-no for me. Even a small dose shuts down methylation or inhibits it to the point where I get symptoms (sometimes it's nothing major, just a little bit of an "off" feeling). When I need supplemental B's I had to take all the other ones piecemeal. Which worked out fine. A little bit of a PITA but not a big deal considering I was already taking handsfuls of stuff anyway. :rolleyes: Even though I'm stable now and feeling good, I still avoid supplemental niacin like the plague. I have always seemed to get all the niacin I need from food. YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I'm the one from Australia;)
    :D

    Quite possible. I experienced adrenal distress when on high doses Mfolate, which is not what you're on. But it's possible. There's also a very close link between liver and adrenals. You're having trouble w/ fats, quite possibly liver issues. If liver's congested, adrenals suffer. My remedy is coffee enemas, link in my signature. I attribute the big gins I've made to not only the correct micronutrients, but also my ongoing CE practice.

    New thread might have something useful for you. It comes from member ppodhajski, whose advice has been very valuable for me. (FMN form of B2): Anyone like me? I found that my SNPs make me very sensitive to eating any fats, but very sensitive to my balance of omega 3 vs omega 6....


    This is good because the doses are low, and activated forms of B2,6. No telling how much of the B12s you get from swallowing instead of sublingual. I don't know anything about this brand. I can't see any B Complex in the Guide I compiled. The short version in my signature, by sheclimber, lists NatureMade B-Complex.
     
  15. Draves

    Draves

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    It's lower back pain. Kidneys/Adrenals area. and happens minutes after I eat some more fat. My regular diet is like 40 g of fat a day.

    That's very interesting you had such a problem related to weight loss with fat digestion. I also when the problems started with fats have lost a lot of weight. I attribute that to drastic diet and exercise I did. Have your problems resolved, or have you find something that helps you tolerate some more fats in your diet? Could our problems be related to fatty liver, caused by rapid weight loss? But again I think that would show up on ultrasound...

    Yes I have been to doctor he ordered some Amylase, Lipase test also he checked for liver enzymes, everything was fine. Furthermore he ordered me ultrasound to check if there is any gallstone or something...again without any problem. I'm tough nut to crack lol :(.I don't really know what to ask for now if I understand that right everything points out to liver problems with because of troubles with fats. Any idea what test I should ask for?

    Yes, English language is fantastic, I love the variety of accents especially. German on the other hand when it comes to worldwide languages is a bit rough for my ears :)

    Well that's good to know. If I start protocol I will watch for niacin if it's causing any troubles. Yes I know the feeling, sometimes you take so many, lol! Nowadays I take just Seriphos, but I remember taking up to 20 capsules a day of something, trying to figure out what's wrong.

    Yes @ahmo it's weird everything points to liver issues, yet doctors haven't find anything. I haven't tried enemas, and I'm really not sure about that since I'm somewhat sensitive to coffee and coffeine. Has it helped you significantly with fat/oil digestion?

    This thread is like Chinese for me so far :) but I will catch up soon I hope. I have just received my 23andme kit so I will be collecting samples and sending them tommorow probably.

    Moreover and this question for all. I've been thinking since I have been taking such a high dose of zinc a day (70 mg) and all at once on empty stomach is it possible I have caused liver scarring and that's the reason why now I have the troubles with fats?

    I know taking zinc on empty stomach wasn't smart since it's heavy metal, but I can undo that....
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    70mg zinc isn't so high. 50mg/day is pretty typical. I was using 200mg/day when detoxxing metals. I take it on empty stomach, w/ selenium, mg, BComp. I don't know how/whether the coffee enemas affected my fat digestion. But I'm quite certain they've played a large part in my overall healing. :thumbsup:
     
  17. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I have not read anywhere that rapid weight loss leads to fatty liver. Nor have I read that it leads to kidney problems. Doesn't mean it will never lead to problems with those to organs but typically weight loss *helps* both those organs.

    But from what I read gallstones are a very common problem with rapid weight loss. In fact, it seems that gallstones are such a common problem with rapid weight loss that some surgeons doing gastric bypass also remove the gallbladder at the same time, as a "prophylactic" measure. :wide-eyed: Describing your pain as in the "kidney/adrenal area" is a bit nebulous and is still in the lower thoracic region, high enough to be caused by the gallbladder. If I was you I'd explore that possibility first. Then maybe pancreas. Did you say you'd had an ultrasound?

    I've been sort of limiting fat intake and haven't had any more problems. I'm also taking some stuff that may help dissolve gallstones. We'll see. My ultrasound showed everything as normal, and my doc seems to think it was probably gallstones. If I have another attack I'm going straight to the emergency room to get tests done while I'm still acute. But so far so good. It's been about a month.

    I like German. It is the English mother tongue, after all. Also, fabulous for getting your point across in a forceful manner. :) And cursing. :D
     
  18. Draves

    Draves

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    So I just came from my MD. Had a horrible dispute, where he basically told me I'm nut and that everything is in my head. He told me that if I want he can write me recommendation for Psychiatrist and that he recommends me magnetic resonance, to check if something is wrong with my brain...
    I actually thought it would be great to share my new discoveries regarding vegetable intake and my fat intake. I thought I would tell him about my suspicion regarding MTFHR mutation and would ask him for some more test on Homocysteine and Pyroluria. (at least that's what I gathered from short time here to be important). But apparently not.

    I'm deeply saddened by his behaviour, not for me as I can recover from it easily, but because of the other patients. If your problems are not solved within 2 visit, you better not come third time, nobody needs you anyway.

    What if other patients with worse condition then come in. They are having hard time, feeling down and all he offers are words of arrogance and distrust. I'm disgusted, I feel sorry for them.

    Must say I'm sorry for not responding to all your ideas but I had to get it off my chest. I will respond later when I think more clearly
     
  19. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Draves, I'm so sorry. It's very disheartening when your doctor turns out to be a condescending, know-it-all douchebag. I've been there, for sure. I actually had one doctor tell me to sit down and shut up(!) because he was the doctor and I was the patient and I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about.

    That said, there are a lot of doctors out there like that, but not all are. I have a good one. So it's tiime to shop around. Where are you...?
     
  20. Draves

    Draves

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    Alright so I should probably let my thoughts of zinc poisoning go. Because the doses were apparently small. Furthermore at that time I sweat a lot at my practice, so great deal of zinc have been lost there anyway. Enemas are for me like last resort. I know very little about them, and thought of it, is just well scary, to be honest.

    @whodathunkit that's incredible what he/she said to you. I'd have serious problem hold myself back if someone would say this to me. I'm bit short tempered haha, So you have good doctor now? I live in Czech Republic, middle of Europe, so I guess I will have to do some shopping by myself...I have already ordered myself to a new women doctor who's had good reviews on the internet. I find women doctors better, they seem to me much more patient oriented rather than just get the job done, so I can go home. Anyway if she doesn't fit, I'll look elsewhere. Also I have sent back 23adnme samples like week ago and tomorrow I have ordered myself for homocysteine test. Trying to get out of this hell as fast as possible...

    Yes I had.

    Glad to hear you're feeling better after limiting fat intake. Do you plan to increase you fat gradually now to find your sweet spot, or are you going to put fat problem on back burner? Same with me for me ultrasound, nothing has been found.

    I expect homocysteine results to get soon as oppose to 23andme which I know take a while, so I thought I would try and jump into protocol. Is anybody here familiar with Seriphos @caledonia maybe? I want to start protocol with Seriphos, but not sure that would be wise decision. Any feedback would be appreciated.
     

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