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Fredd's protocol question: Which one to start first?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Jan 21, 2012.

  1. chilove

    chilove

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    Hello all,

    I"m excited to start Fredd's protocol but I've reacted so badly to the suggested doses on a very similar methlyl protocol before so I want to start really slow and easy.

    Which one supplement on Fredd's protocol should I start first if I want to start with just one for now? The methyl B12?

    EDIT: Also, I just re-read Fredd's protocol on the above link and it was a bit confusing the way it was laid out.. is it suggested to take all three of the below at the same time?

    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117?at=0

    Enzymatic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Thera...lets/2119?at=0

    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-Metafolin-Folic-Acid-800-mcg-100-Tablets/13961?at=0

    So once on the full protocol the two different b12s (both the jarron methy b12 and the enzymatic therapy b12) are taken together in addition to the metafolin?

    Thanks!

    Thanks so much!

    Audrey
     
  2. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I remember Freddd saying to that starting abd12 first was a good idea, less startup effect than methylb12. I personnaly started methylfolate and methylb12 first at the same time and added adb12 afterward. It was tough to sleep at first but it's fine now.

    Since I switched to the active protocol (i was on the simplified protocol for about 2 - 3 months), I started experiencing electrolyte imbalances symptoms, which I'm pretty sure is low potassium but I'm going to have a blood test day thuesday. Maybe it's a coincidence and it would have happen anyway on the simplified protocol, hard to tell. Be ready for a potassium drop anyway!
     
  3. chilove

    chilove

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    Oh, the protocol I have bookmarked doesn't mention adb12? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics Is that the wrong one?

    I am preparing for the potassium drop as I experienced it in a big way once before on another methyl b protocol and don't want to feel that again. I picked up some specially compounded potassium supplements from my pharmacist today. :)

    Thanks so much!
     
  4. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Hi,

    yes it's dibencozoide in this protocol :

    Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness, from 1 per day to 1 per week http://www.iherb.com/Dibencozide-Sub...ets/21571?at=0

    I take 1/4 of a tablet, 1 seems like a lot
     
  5. chilove

    chilove

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    Thanks so much...can you please include link to the protocol again? It didn't come through.

    Thanks!
     
  6. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Hello Chilove,

    There is a wealth of information on these forums, posted at different times and in different places, so it can be hard to find up-to-date information. You should know that Freddd revised the B12 protocol in May of 2011 to eliminate supplemnts containing folic acid (adb12, b-right, etc.), on the assumption that man-made folic acid actually contributes to folate deficiency. I had been following the old protocol for about 9 months, and noticed little difference, if any. However, when I went off it, I really crashed within 3 weeks, so it must have been doing something. I went back on the new non-folic acid protocol in September 2011, and experienced dramatic and noticible increases in my health almost right away. I continue to notice improvements, and attribute this largely to the revised B12 protocol. Here is a link to the updated protocol:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics

    Good luck!
     
  7. chilove

    chilove

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    Thanks so much Mr Cat! I'm so glad to hear you've been seeing gains! Can you please share what areas you saw improvement in? That would be very encouraging.

    Thanks!

    Audrey
     
  8. chilove

    chilove

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    ALso, can someone please answer my question about whether or not you take the Jarrow B12 AND the Enzymatic Therapy B12 at the same time or do you pick one or the other??

    Thanks!
     
  9. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I think what Freddd meant in the active b 12 thread you mentioned is that both of these methylb12 source have been tested and found effective by him. You should only take one brand. However, it's important to include some dibencozoide too (adenosylb12), the one I mentioned previously doesn't contain folic acid, which is what you want on this protocol.

    I think the thread you mentioned earlier (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics) is up to date.

    Don't forget to take the b-complex (without folic acid and cyanocobalamin). I take the one from Douglas Labs with metafolin in it.

    Apparently, I'm not the only having a really noticeable reaction to the revised protocol, removing all sources of folic acid seem important for many.

    Good luck!
     
  10. chilove

    chilove

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    Thanks so much! I'm starting today with the Jarrow methyl B12... 1/2 of the 1000tab. I'm excited!
     
  11. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Yes it's the same b-complex I'm taking, I split the powder to make two even doses that I that at lunch and before bedtime, it's better to take it two times a day but two full capsules seems like a lot to me.

    Regarding the metafolin in b-complex, you end up taking 800 mcg a day if you take one b-complex and half a tablet of a 800 mcg metafolin tablet (I'm taking the solgar brand). That's the dose I'm currently taking, I might try increasing to a full tablet eventually. I figured 800 mcg total was a lot already in comparison to Rich smp protocol.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Gu3vara,

    One thing I remember was the huge amount of "detox" I saw arriving at this board using hycbl and folinic acid instead of mb12 and metafolin I was used to people seeing. Now we have pinned so much of that problem on paradoxical folate deficiency. Response to folic acid and folinic acid in no way predicts response to Metafolin just as response to hycbl in no way predicts responses to mb12 and adb12. They can be genuine opposites. I started out on 400mcg a day of Metafolin and it did make a difference. The reason was that I was only able to get a few bottles of closeout Source Naturals fromn the only batch they made and I was testing it out and trying to preserve what little I had to get me through until more became avaialble.
     
  13. chilove

    chilove

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    Great! Thanks so much! I just ordered the extra supplements.
     
  14. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Hi Chilove,

    I was under the impression that the revised protocol suggested taking both the Jarrow methyl-B12 and Enzymatic Therapies B12, not one or the other (Freddd?). As I said, I did notice a big difference between the old protocol and the new protocol. I have never taken the Enzymatic Therapies alone without the Jarrow, so it could be that I just respond better to the ET B12 and not the Jarrow that I was taking on the original protocol, or it may be the absence of folic acid. I may test it one day, but for now am enjoying my health taking both B12s on the new protocol, and am not in the mood to mess around with it just yet. The only thing I'm not taking is the Metafolin, as I have never experienced much effect, positive or negative, from taking it. I get some in the Douglas Laboratories b-complex anyway. What did have an obvious effect were SAM-e and L-Carnitine, which both boosted mood and energy for me.
    You had asked what kinds of improvements I have noticed. Since September/October 2011 or so, when I started the revised protocol, I have experienced reduced brain fog and increased mental clarity, and I rarely have to take naps during the day, whereas before I did this on a regular basis. I used to not be able to read books much at all due to brain fog, and can now read with no problem. I also started meditating again, which I hadn't done regularly in years because of my symptoms. I have experienced being in a better mood, due to less physical discomfort, and I have a little more mental energy and motivation to engage in things. My physical stamina has also increased, though it still goes up and down. I am sometimes able to take walks, sometimes not, but not much more than this. I am still healing, and have a long way to go, but have definitely seen some improvement.

    Good luck!
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Cat,

    What I found with the ET and Jarrow pair was unique. Using a differential effects model not a single other brand was able to improve over Jarrow OR ET and they each produced sustantial differential effects over all other brands. However, they EACH were able to improve upon the effects of the other, meaning they were both the best of the best but also slightly different from each other in effect. Early on I found that the two together were superior to either one alone. Even today, in addition to the 30mg I inject for CNS penetration I also take 15mg of Jarrow and 3mg of ET for qualitative benefit. This more subtle difference didn't really become noticable until startup effects phased down.
     
  16. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    15mg/3mg is the amount I'm taking, and it seems to be working. Thanks!
     
  17. chilove

    chilove

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    That is great to hear! :) Congratulations on your improvement!

    Thanks so much for sharing.
     
  18. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    As a caveat, I should mention that I started an alkaline/caveman diet about the same time as the revised B12 protocol, and I think that also had a lot to do with reducing the brain fog. Also some Jarrow EPS probiotics that set my gut straight. But the B12 certainly helped, especially with energy.
     
  19. chilove

    chilove

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    Oh yes, I'm sure that helped a great deal. Diet is a big component (and rest and sunshine and laughter) I"m already alkaline and grain and dairy free and have been for years but hopefully I'll see lots of improvement as well.

    Thanks so much!
     
  20. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Freddd

    I have recently started your protocol (2 weeks now)

    Two questions - Im currently taking one one Jarrow B12, 1/4 dibencozide and 6 solgar metafolins daily (in addition to all the other essentials and co-factors).

    Q: What should I increase the Jarrow b12 to?

    Q: 1/4 per day dibencozide is more than you recommend but somehow I end up taking a 1/4 daily. What is the recommended dose ie 1/4 every 3 days say, or other?

    Is there a ratio of B12 to dibencozide?

    Q: How much metafolin should I build up to?

    I know you take a lot but when I compare Solgar metafolin to Deplin whose lowest dose tablet is 7.5mg, I am thinking that I would take around 8 Solgar metafolin's daily (plus the 400mcg in the Douglas Labs B Complex).

    Thoughts please??

    Cheers
     

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