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Freddd's Protocol: Penetrative Dose Questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sheclimber, Dec 8, 2014.

  1. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Hi all, I'm brand new here and just finished several days of reading and ordered all my supplements. I'll be starting Freddd's protocol next week. I think I have it mostly figured out, thanks to everyone for contributing and compiling information. I do have some specific questions about the Penetrative Dose (if I'm even naming it correctly).

    I saw it referenced here as a possible challenge for those skeptical about whether or not the protocol would affect them, and I've seen some other references, but wasn't able to find precise info, about it being something you might want to do every so often as part of your ongoing protocol.

    My Questions (assuming I'm not making all this up):

    1) Is this the correct procedure for the Penetrative Dose:

    Over the course of 3 hours, dissolve 5 tabs of adb12 (Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex or Source Naturals Dibencozide) and 5 tabs of mb12 (Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion) between your cheek and gum. Start with one of each and add another of each every 30-45 minutes.

    2) Is it a good idea to start with this procedure as a sort of baseline test that you can use to experientially track your progress on the protocol? If so, I'm assuming any affects that show up during with the Penetrative Dose would be smart things to pay attention to and track as you proceed.

    3) If it is a good thing to use as a progress test, how often might you want to repeat it?

    4) Is this an actual part of the treatment protocol that you want to perform regularly, and, if so, then how often?

    Thanks so much to everyone contributing to make this fantastic resource!
     
  2. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Also, regarding #2 above, I'm thinking that the test makes the most sense after 1 week of basic cofactors.
     
  3. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @sheclimber ,

    Some people are extremely sensitive to those supplements, and a very few can't use them. I would recommend that you do NOT try this at the beginning. The phrase is "Start Low and Go Slow" - so that you know how you respond and can back off if something doesn't agree with you. See the link in @caledonia 's signature. Good that you asked!
     
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @sheclimber I would follow Critterina's advice. Don't start the protocol at those dosages!
    Especially the 5x Dbdencomplex... those are 10mg tablets. Starting with 50mg of AdB12 doesn't make any sense, sorry. It's a horse like dose. :woot: Even Freddd recommends to start very easy and gradually increase the dosage.

    Keep it low and slow and you'll likely get tangible benefits.

    cheers
     
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  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Sheclimber,

    Please, allow me to clarify. The method you outline should work if those brands will work for you. However the order it is done in is a necessary part.

    1. All basics in place
    2. Titrate body from start to 15 or 20mg a day of MeCbl and 10mg AdoCbl once a week and no more noticeable daily response from either
    3. Methylfolate titrated to sufficiency
    4. Potassium adjust to sufficiency
    5. L-carnitine titrated to effectiveness, perhaps 500-1000mg and an increase of 250mg more makes no difference.
    6. SAM-e is titrated
    7. TMG is titrated. If it does nothing, discontinue
    8. Biotin is titrated
    9. B1, B2 and B3 are adjusted if needed.
    After this then the CNS penetration test is tried. The CNS effect is normally far more subtle than the body startup and if there is any body startup left, it overwhelms the CNS effects making the CNS trial less effective. The CNS can be tried with MeCbl first. Then a couple of days later try 50mg of the AdoCbl, first 2 tablets, adding one each half hour to total. The AdoCbl might only work once since AdoCbl is persistent in the mitochondria. Each of these two trials can let you know if you have a difficult to enter cerebral spinal fluid. It appears to be a transport problem of unknown cause which many with neurological diseases have, including FMS and CFS.

    Right now SC injection of 7.5mg to 10mg MeCbl appears to be a CNS penetrating dose. I use 3x10mg injections daily to maintain my CNS level of MeCbl. If I only do twice a day I have some startup each time. FOr me it takes 3 for equilibrium. Good luck.
     
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  6. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Thanks @Critterina and @PeterPositive for steering me away from disaster. I am, in fact, not a horse. I must have looked at the Enzymatic Therapy label twice, made an assumption, or otherwise brainfarted when I wrote that. It looks like, on first glance, that some of the info in @caledonia's Low and Slow manual contradicts what I've seen about start up vs. detox and whether or not 'overmethylation' is an accurate term - I'll have to do more reading to get clear on that.

    @Freddd - Thank you for clarifying the timing for the CNS Penetration Test and your clear and concise outline. If you have time, I have one more question:

    What is the exact start timing/dosage for steps 2 & 3?
    Is it 1 tab (1mg) MeCbl 6 days a week and a crumb of AdoCbl one day a week titrated up to 15-20mg MeCbl 6 days per week and 10mg AdoCbl one day a week, THEN titrate Methylfolate up to sufficiency? Or do I start 200mcg 4x/d (800mcg/d total) Methylfolate at the same time I start the B12s, and then titrate up from there once I'm done titrating the B12s? Or something else entirely?

    Thanks so much for all your work. Your model makes so much sense to me and I feel hopeful about my health in a way I haven't in a very long time.
     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @sheclimber
    Some people are extremely sensitive, others need quite large doses. You don't know which you are until you try the supplements. The best thing is to start very low and increase very slowly. Even Freddd says this. I'm talking 50mcg or less of methylfolate and B12 to start. Certainly not mg doses.

    If you're sensitive, it can put you in the hospital. Be sure to have niacin on hand before starting in case you run into trouble. Even 50mcg could be too much for some people.

    I've been doing this for 2 years and I'm not even taking 50mcg.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Sheclimber,

    It's easier to put the ENZY under your lip. When it starts having neurological brightening or an energized feeling and you don't want it to become more intense, chew and swallow the tablet. The absorption stops in minutes and so does the increase in brightening. Of course if you are more like me, I held it for an hour. At the end of the hour life long depression had lifted, the abnormal fatigue was on the way out and about 50 symptoms were starting to change and much reduced within a month.

    Each time the brightening went down at the dose I was on I increased the dose. It took me 4 months to go from 1mg to 5mg and 4 months to go from 5 to 20mg. Then after that went to zero immediate noticeable effect I did the 50mg test. My opinion is after a week on MeCbl, I would do the dose of one tablet of AdoCbl, let it absorb for 12+ hours. As it populates the mitochondria the energized feeling, if any only happens once typically for the body.

    If you check the so called "overmethylation" symptoms they are usually deficiency symptoms, often of AdoCbl. People often confuse ATP startup for "over methylation". I judge the effectiveness of these various theories by who has healed with them. I've healed from FMS and CFS and congestive heart failure. However, I was a hyper responder to methyB12 If I had let that scare me off I likely would have died 10 years ago.

    The first tablet was an hour long rush, back to closer to normality. I was so far down for so long it had become normal. By comparison a few micrograms of MeCbl put me through the roof the first time. It was great. On the other hand if a person has anxiety they will be likely to interpret that in an anxious and “bad” way. And find it an unpleasant experience instead of a euphoric lifting of depression. Do whatever pleases you. After being sick my whole life finding that MeCbl was changing my life I assumed it was all good, and it was. Good health to you.


    The slower you go the longer the intense reactions last. Remember, the first thing MeCbl does for most people is increase the intensity of the senses. EVERYTHING IS PERCEIVED MORE. I found the difference between 1mg and 5mg imperceptible to most people and that 5mg a day brings perceivable response down to zero faster.


    At about 3 days in after starting the methylfolate symptoms making you feel rather sick may start. They are usually both folate deficiency symptoms on some levels and low potassium. Those need to be identified by the list of symptoms and the deficiencies corrected by titration. Many find that they often need to go up to 5mg of Metafolin or more to stop the folate deficiency symptoms. I typically increased by taking an 800mcg tablet 3 times a day, and increasing by another tablet each of 3 doses until the symptoms form the folate deficiency start going down.

    The potassium can be taken at 300mg per several hours with water until the symptoms start going down and stay down. These can go away for an hour and be back because of serum halflife issues in another 2 hours. Many have to increase by 2000-3000mg of potassium daily. If these are both impossible to get to adequacy check the amounts of B1, B2 And B3 which can drive an insatiable need for folate and/or potassium. They need to be lower than what many supplents supply to avoid overdriving the need for folate and potassium..
     
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  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    SHeclimber, One last thing. The MeCbl has to come before the methylfolate to protect your neurology. So swallow the folate and putting the ENZY in your mouth at the same time will work well on both counts.
     
  10. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Got it, so if I were to break the procedure down for steps 2 & 3 in your outline @Freddd it is:
    1. 1mg MeCbl (1 tab Enzymatic Therapy) under the lip - let dissolve until the neurological brightening (or whatever effect I experience) is as intense as I am willing to allow and then chew and swallow. Repeat daily.
    2. Anticipate that around day 3 I will start having symptoms of folate and/or potassium deficiency. Based on my symptoms, add Metafolin or potassium or both. Metafolin I start with 800mcg total for the day, then move up to 800mcg 3 times a day, then add another 800mcg at each dose until symptoms start going down. Potassium I take 300mg every several hours until symptoms go down and stay down.
    3. After 7 days, take a day off of MeCbl and instead dissolve a crumb of a 10mg tab of AdoCbl.
    4. Repeat steps 1-3 with, as start up symptoms subside, increasing doses until I've reached 15-20mg a day of MeCbl and 10mg AdoCbl once a week.
    I appreciate you sharing your personal experience. Currently I tend towards oversensitivity, so we'll see how it goes.

    @caledonia thank you for your personal experience as well. It's sounding like most of these doses are above what you recommend. I suppose I'll just need to pay very close attention to how sensitive I am and only titrate up when things are feeling very stable at existing doses.
     
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  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    These things are multi modal. However, the thing that cost me dearly was that for the first 5 years my CNS kept deteriorating even with the amounts of sublingual and 2.5 - 5mg injected daily, the most my doc would prescribe. Over several years I worked up to 7.5mg which helped for hours to finding I needed 30mg in 3 or 4 doses per day to hold my CNS from getting worse or even improving slowly. I am very aware that one of the most in common things we have is in the research that shows that there are low cerebral spinal fluid levels of cobalamin and high MMA and HCY which together point at a difficult time getting MeCbl/AdoCbl into the brain and cord and/or keeping it there. Having a body reaction to these MeCbl AND AdoCbl doesn't indicate healing effectiveness in the brain. Low levels start affecting hormones, neurotransmitters, mood and personality in functional ways. However, the larger amount appears to be required in order to heal demyelinated areas regaining nerve function. I couldn't feel where my legs were 6 years ago after 5 years on b12. It's been up and down the past 6 years and other problems such as a dangerous fallback to worse damaged nerves because of a glutathione trial. If I had it to do over again, start big injections soonest to keep my CNS healthier.
     
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  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    One thing I would like to mention, when it is low folate often it is not stable with worsening folate deficiency symptoms, and being too slow on potassium can be fatal. People have ended up in the ER for ignoring the low potassium for too long or it came on hard and fast and they didn't have any on hand. Don't wait to order until you need it. I keep it by the bed because I can't walk as far as the kitchen with severe spasms low potassium causes me.
     
  13. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    I'd like to say that this is definitely real.

    This was before I found this forum, so I wasn't even aware of the toll that starting up B12 after a deficiency can have on the body, as well as the specific need for potassium.

    I started taking 250mcg tablets of cyano B12 (what I found at the chemist) for really bad B12 deficiency. The first few days I took 250mcg tablets once per day. On the fourth day I was pleasantly surprised to find that I was feeling better. I took 2 x 250mcg B12 tablets on the fourth day, yet by that evening, I was feeling really out of it, unfocused, couldn't concentrate.

    So I had a shower and went to bed, but couldn't focus on the TV. Tried sleeping, but kept having these weird dreams, similar to when you are trying to sleep and dream when you have a high fever. I woke up to go to the bathroom, and then suddenly my heart started beating SO fast, I thought it was going to beat out of my chest. Now, full disclosure, I've had panic attacks before this and I know what it feels like.

    This was not a panic attack. It was something else. I called an ambulance (first time ever), but by the time the ambulance arrived, my heart when back to normal and I was feeling better. Of course, the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong, even when I told them that I started taking B12 recently (shocking, I know.)

    So yes, low potassium can definitely put you in the ER. I'm very lucky I didn't have a heart attack that night.

    In my opinion, it's better to start low, take the other supplements that you deem necessary to go along with them. Keep your electrolytes up as you do this, and titrate up over the weeks/months. You can always titrate up over time if you go slow, but if you go to fast and take megadoses all at once, you just don't know how your body might react, especially if you are deficient on what your body is screaming out for. Once you give it to your body, it tries to heal the damage rapidly, doing its job, but it can be a shock to the system and cause chaos in other areas.

    Funnily enough, on the pamphlet that comes with hydroxyB12 injections, it says that one must be careful of low potassium when addressing megaloblastic anemia caused by B12. Funny how no doctor, even in the emergency room knows this, yet it's right there in the pamphlet. Makes me think that I could have had megaloblastic anemia at the time due to low B12.
     
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  14. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Right, so increase the B12s after symptoms stabilize, and you increase folate and potassium until symptoms stabilize. Thanks for this clarification.
     
  15. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Thanks @boo85 and everyone else for your stories and suggestions - I'll be starting basic cofactors tomorrow morning and then methyl B12 in a week or so.
     
  16. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    Regarding potassium: learn your deficit signals and trust them.

    I take 4-6gms a day (yes, grams), based entirely on my deficit symptoms which I have come to be able to identify clearly. There's a lot of unnecessary fear around too much potassium, but too little is more common, and as many point out, quite dangerous. A kidney doctor of my acquaintance told me that as long as your kidneys are healthy, it's almost impossible to overdose on potassium.

    I would have found this very reassuring when I started the protocol, terrified by warnings of too much potassium. :)

    I mostly use potassium gluconate in water, and am never without that or pills.
     
  17. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    Thanks @aturtles for the tip on potassium. So far these symptoms seem pretty straightforward - I feel the cramps coming on. And potassium citrate works, but gives me heartburn if I don't take magnesium along with it. I probably could use the magnesium as well, but I'm going to get some potassium gluconate anyway.
     
  18. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Hey @sheclimber, I had downloaded your paper on Freddd's protocol a week or two ago and just took a look at it. Bravo!! Thank you for putting all that together!!!

    I might suggest PABA go along with the Pantethine for Adrenal support (from my personal experience).
     
  19. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    hey @sregan, glad you like the doc. do you have any more specifics on the PABA (brand, dose, where you got the idea to try it, anything else)?

    thanks!
     
  20. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    PABA extends the cortisol you have in your system (slows the breakdown of it.) Suggest to take first thing in the AM when your cortisol levels are high. I've always taken with Pantethine (Citric Acid Cycle).

    Here's the long story of how I came upon the PABA + Pantethine combo: http://cfsjourney.com//index.php/2010/01/12/a-cure-for-adrenal-fatigue

    I take Now PABA and usually take only about 75 mg at a time (dump a little out of the 500mg capsule into my mouth. This stuff is very nasty, do not inhale and immediately drink something after I put it in my mouth)

    I think Lithium is possibly something to add to your doc also also. (See my notes on it here)
     
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