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Freddd: Starting Methylation and have a few start up questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd

    Today the parcel arrived from iherb with all the basics and essentials.

    Please bear with my questions. I know the one about starting slowly has been addressed but I cannot find it. Maybe some of these could go into your Protocol sticky??

    1. What is starting slowly for the following:
    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12
    Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg
    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg

    2. Are the above to be taken at the same time? I think you may have said to take Metafolin one hour before mb12 somewhere?
    3. How fast and by how much should the above be increased?
    3. Preferrably, should the MEtafolin be introduced first (as you suggested to another poster yesterday) and then introduce the mb12 later and then the adb12??

    Is it possible that the Metafolin on its own may be sufficient to lift a methylation block in some people?
    4. At full dosage, how much Metafolin should be taken? Given lowest Deplin is 7.5mg, how many Solgars should be taken? Should these be taken with meals or on an empty stomach (I see that you said on a post yesterday to take before food AND with food). I acknowledge that this will vary from person to person but I need a starting target,
    5. At full dose how much Dibencozide should be taken (I see that recently you said 1/4 of the 10mg table every 2-3 days ought to be enough to reach and maintain body equilibrium. But the protocol says from 1 per day to 1 per week
    6. How many Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin to be taken daily? I think you said twice a day somewhere? With food or before?
    7. How much Potassium during start up and how much at maintenance?
    8. Do we need to supplement with p5p or is the multi B sufficient?
    9. Finally, Vit A you say A&D from fish oil, 10,000 Vit A but most fish oils dont contain Vit A whereas cod liver oil does. I happen to have both oils but when I run out, is fish oil preferred over CLO ? If so, then what sort of Vit A should be taken? This type http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Natural-Vitamin-A-D3-250-Softgels-Discontinued-Item/10435?at=0 or this http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Beta-Carotene-25-000-IU-90-Softgels/13446?at=0 or other?


    BIG thanks for your continuous help!
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    What is starting slowly for the following:
    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12
    Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg
    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg


    There is a lot of differring opinion. Let me say that a quarter of each tablet would be a sufficient dose initially. However, to stop some of the paradoxical folate deficiency syndromes requires a larger dose to do it quickly. Dose effect effect is not linear. Whole tablets won't make 4x as much difference, probably less than twice as much.

    If you want to bring one thing on board a day, I would start with the methylfolate, then the adb12 and then the mb12, on succeeding days. That might be gentler on startup, experience and opinion on that varies.

    Are the above to be taken at the same time? I think you may have said to take Metafolin one hour before mb12 somewhere?

    If it makes a difference, it is a difference in the absorbtion of the b12 for some people. Not a consideration for startup, it's more of an individual fine tuning. It can also be in reference to food folate if a person has food folate paradoxical fooate deficiency, preload the receptors with Metafolin before eating.

    How fast and by how much should the above be increased?

    Going faster produces faster results and finishes startup faster. On the other hand some say "too uncomforatable". However a very low dose will stretch out startup almost indefinitely. I've played with maximum dosage a lot. The is a peak of beneficial effect beyond which more doesn't help and at best is expensive without benefit. That is titration for effect. Different people need different realtive amounts of the trinity as well.

    Is it possible that the Metafolin on its own may be sufficient to lift a methylation block in some people?

    Maybe, maybe not. However, there are lots more things b12 does besides methylation.

    At full dose how much Dibencozide should be taken (I see that recently you said 1/4 of the 10mg table every 2-3 days ought to be enough to reach and maintain body equilibrium. But the protocol says from 1 per day to 1 per week

    Some of that may have been in comment to the 3mg size. However, some people need it more often than others. SOme need more than others. That is fine tunig for the person after they are stable on it and can tell what the minimum effective dose is. It may take a year of trials to tell.


    How many Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin to be taken daily? I think you said twice a day somewhere? With food or before?


    Twice a day with food. B-vits can upset the stomach alone or with only eggs or meat. It needs vegggies or fruit or grains or potato or rice to keep stomach comfy. Best method, eat 1/3 of fmeal, mix a vitamin and a bite of foos in middle third of meal untill all vits taken then finish meal. There needs to be food on top of vitamins to avoid stomach upset. A big clumb of all vitamins and no food can cause nausea.

    How much Potassium during start up and how much at maintenance?[/]

    How fast are you forming cells? I would suggest that 1 tablet twice a day is fine until you have a big change such as spasms in the middle of the night or some other things, often on the third or 4th day and then 500mg when the problem happens and increase the amount with meals a coupole of tablets and see if it happens again. It can shift awound. I've taken everywhere from about 400mg (396) to 1800mg a day depending upon what my body is doing. I take a diuretic that increases clearance, Clarance, of potassium, very individual.

    Do we need to supplement with p5p or is the multi B sufficient?

    Don't know. Do a trial later after you are stable on the protocol and see if it makes a difference.

    Finally, Vit A you say A&D from fish oil, 10,000 Vit A but most fish oils dont contain Vit A whereas cod liver oil does. I happen to have both oils but when I run out, is fish oil preferred over CLO ? If so, then what sort of Vit A should be taken?

    On the bottle information it might say 10,000/1000 a & D from Shark liver oil or cod liver oil. There are differences of opinion. However, D from cod liver oil is D3 by current naming. The non carotene A is more effective.

    I didn't mean to imply that the omega3 oils which are also needed, have a and d.

    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-A-D-10-000-400-IU-250-Softgels/385?at=0
    Is just fine or similar ones. You will need additional D as well.
     
  3. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd

    How many Metafolins daily?

    Is one mb12 taken in say, four doses sufficient or should more than one mb12 tablet be taken daily?

    I plan to do a 1/4 adb12 daily for starters and continue this for a while.

    One final vit A question, the Now product that you linked to is synthetic A (Retinyl Palmitate) whereas the Solgar product that I randomly picked is natural A &D (from fish oil livers - presumably a by-product of CLO production) - shame its discontinued. I have read that the natural Vit A really doesnt have a strict upper limit like the synthetic vit A (Weston A Price are big on this). Do you have any thoughts? (I take D3 on its own already)

    Thanks again
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    I had lost sight on the natural Vi A, By all means that is better. Start with the 1,25mg of a quarter. Then feel free to take additional quarters several times a day which does help the adaptation process. When that has leveled out an become normal start taking halves. That could be 3-6 months so let's discuss things in a responive way as you go along.
     
  5. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I'm confused about methylb12 dosing. Should I aim to take 5000 mg in one dose every day or split it in many doses? From the posts I read about your protocol, I understood that it's better to reach 5000 mg in one dose and then add additional doses if necessary. Something to do with the depth of penetration in the body but that it was kind of pointless to take 2 or 3 5000 mgs at once.

    What do you suggest? Thx!
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi gu3vara,

    During the intial startup phase, all the tissues throughout the body and CNS are relatively low on b12. The tissues may be short of mb12, adb12 or both.

    BODY
    With adb12 the muscles require most of the adb12. It finds a parking place in the mitochondria and stays there. It takes relatively few doses to fill up and is typically easily maintained by one or two doses a week though some need it more often.

    With mb12 the need for it in any given place is temporary, a cell that is going to divide. The cell has to grab onto it as it goes by. A 99% is said to be excreted within 24 hours and the serum halflife is short and gradually lengthens. A larger dose makes a different effect than several smaller doses in a row. The several doses in the course of the day maintain the serum level relatively evenly for a lot of the day. Many backlogged needs get filled. Some do not. On the other hand one large doses has a short peak that doesn't give a lot of time for a cell to access it. However, certain things that don't respond to a lower serum level peak for longer do respond to a higher peak for a short time, and vice versa. I've called these things for convienience breadth and depth. Maybe they are. It was a pragmatically based distinction. It makes maybe 5% difference in the long run and each way of dosing changes the emphasis of what heals when.

    For me, when I was doing only sublingual, I applied both. I started with 1m and over a few months worked up to several 1mg talbets a day. Then I went to the 5mg, quickly went to several day and then several at a toime and severazl additional singles through the day. At that level both methods ran out of startup effects and I was fully saturated except for the CNS whic responded noticably to single doses of 50mg.

    The single larger dose tended to produce somewhat more intense startup for shorter times. The stretched out doses tended to produce less intense startup but it lasted all day at the same intnsity so it was a good way to go towards saturation without more intensity.

    There really is no answer about what is best. They are slightly different and each eventually ends up in saturation. Doing both reached saturation fastest and the end of startup responses soonest.
     
  7. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Excellent answer, thx!
     
  8. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    @Freddd and others
    I'm currently three wks in
    Following your protocol exactly except for the AdenoB12...the startup on it is killing me. I'm at 1mg...makes me emotionless or sad and muscle pain all over. In trying to understand...would I be better to take more or less of it? Don't want to be in startup forever. Afraid what it might do, though. How long might this go on? I could just sob. And one day will I hit a point where I have enough AdB12 and MB12 where taking it makes no obvious difference? Later I'll Just take for maintenance seems to be ultimate goal?
     
    Kathevans likes this.
  9. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @Nikki7 I've looked over some of your posts and haven't found a reference to Folate. How much are you taking? For me, as I reviewed my notes, it seems that many of my symptoms, if not most of them, are related to Folate deficiency: the depression, the increased inflammation/pain. As I increase in larger amounts, I have longer periods of a lessening of symptoms. Have you looked at Freddd's 'Methylation: Symptoms List'? It is a very good list of symptoms by supplement and can help guide you--if you stare at it long enough! It ought to be used in combination with the even more important 'low potassium and/or folate insufficiency lists' also compiled by him.

    Update of the second:
    Version 1.4 09/25/2015

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels


    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,


    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
    Freddd, Dec 21, 2015



    The first I can't seem to find. Maybe someone else can provide a link.

    Since you are struggling with AdoB12--as I have been over the past two or three weeks as I've tried various approaches to adding it into my regimen--this post by @Freddd a few years ago jumped out at me and seemed very worth re-posting: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/page-3

    HYPERSENSITIVITY IDENTIFIED

    As I have been saying there are 4 specific b12 and cofactor deficiencies. I have pinned down one of them that hadnt been identified before as a separate thing.

    This specific pattern, of neurological mitochondria shutdown, has some specific characteristics. There is an extreme hypersensitivity to adenosylb12 and/or l-carnitine fumarate and sometimes methylfolate if the person converts to adb12 well enough. The first one in may have no effect or may be hyper responsive. The second one taken often causes a huge response. So, in one case, l-carnitine fumarate, perhaps 50mg, as first taken, has no effect. A week later after that was out of the system, adenosylb12 was taken and had no effect and was established. After a few day of adenosylb12 the response to < 1mg of l-Carnitine fumarate is out of this world intense. After that an increase in methylb12 is also extreme, but not the nominal 500mcg already established as that is rolled into the l-carnitine response. So we see the dependence of the nerves on adb12-LCF activating the mitochondria in order to have a response to mb12. The specific mix of these responses depends on the person being extremely deficient of all 3 items in the CNS. The person however didnt have the symptoms of stalled methylation that one often sees in the epithelial tissues of the body. Body does not have much in the way of symptoms compared to the neurological and neuro-psyc. It is mostly neurological.

    The mood characteristics show a great deal of anxiety as a base condition. Sudden emotional changes or storms, can look bipolar. Sudden rage, panic attacks etc all are very much worsened by adb12, mb12, LCF once the mutual dependencies are no longer blocking each other. Often risk sports or pseudo risk entertainments, roller coasters, bungee jumping, parachute jumping, fast boats, fast cars, fast anything are too much and too scary. OCD or elements of it may be present. These have to do typically with neural dopamine processing. These symptoms, as well as others including certain neuromuscular, may be present or caused or worsened by benzo usage, especially in those who are experiencing what is commonly called tolerance withdrawal which appears to be more a late or slow onset side effect. There are a lot more characteristics to really pin it down. However, those just clarify how it manifests. Low dopamine symptoms have to appear for Parkinsons to be diagnosed. Recent research has shown that Parkinsons has low CSF cobalamin, elevated CSF MMA and hypothesis that 20 years or more of damage from mal or non functioning neural mitochondria causes Parkinsons and here we have damaged neurons from low adb12-LCF and the beginning of the emotional/personality characteristics often found in Parkinsons (or some forms of Parkinsons) from these damaged neurons. The question comes down to:
    HOW SOON BEFORE PARKINSONS DIAGNOSIS CAN CORRECTING THE DEFICIENCIES CORRECT THE DAMAGE AND/OR PREVENT MORE DAMAGE?

    Most of these neuro-psyc symptoms appear to be linked to limbic system damage. The hypothesis is that 20 years or more of neurological damage from non-functioning neuro-mitochondria with low CSF cobalamin and elevated CSF MMA (non-functioning mitochondria by virtue of CSF adenosylb12/l-carnitine-fumarate deficiency as indicated by elevated CSF MMA) which has these symptoms is Parkinsons disease. Furthermore, Parkinsons disease is associated with limbic system damage.

    It is these extreme deficiencies that appear to damage the neurons and causes the extreme hyper responsiveness. A micro titration of mb12, adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate can build the levels up, eventually to levels that according to the Japanese studies, up-regulates neurological healing. As the damaged neurons are reactivated they are extremely irritable and there is an increase in symptoms. Tapering the benzos may be helpful for turning down the secondary low dopamine symptoms. The benzos can cause a change in the dopamine receptors which appears to cause these Parkinsons type symptoms when a person has the adb12/carnitine deficiency damaged neurons.
    This one subgroup, with hypersensitivity to at least adenosylb12 and/or l
    carnitine fumarate and possibly mb12, with lots of anxiety, possibly with emotional outbursts, possible instant rage or killing rage, OCD or OCD like, doesn't get a thrill from thrilling activities, fear instead. Then adb12, mb12 or l-carnitine fumarate can, in tiny quantities trigger any or all in succession of the emotional responses. Also, benzos are frequently prescribed for the deficiency symptoms, and when the dose is large enough, it has an effect on the dopamine receptors causing the above emotional responses which are mostly part of the "Parkinson's personality" and in benzo-board lingo is "tolerance withdrawal" rather than "late onset side effects". Tolerance withdrawal is a far scarier term than "side effects". This deficiency appears to damage the limbic system. Then, when the neurons that are now hypersensitive are exposed to anything that starts them producing ATP and transmitting signals they have painfully intense responses, just as different damage can produce intense pain or bodywide pain sensitivity. When looking up the limbic system the disease mentioned that is at least in part caused by damage to the limbic system specifically is Parkinson's.

    It appears that the damage appears to keep increasing for years and years until it becomes PARKINSONS, ALS, MS, SUPRA NUCLEAR PALSY and ALZHEIMERS, probably depending upon the exact mix of deficiencies, the exact neurological areas damaged or other factors. Until methylb12, adenosylb12 and l-carnitine fumarate are all brought up to the level that prevents further damage and then to a level that can heal the damage if possible, it is likely that the damage just keeps on going.

    This specific aspect is not a methylation problem but that may also be a cofactor. This can be limited to the brain and cord with little or no body involvement. Hydroxycbl does not replace the adnenosylb12 but some people can convert the methylb12 to adenosylb12 to some extent. Further the double or triple deficiency with the l-carnitine fumarate and mb12 assures that no single substance can repair this. It HAS to be a complicated (many substances) protocol with careful titration.

    If a person is going to heal from this, assuming that is even possible, its only going to happen with the Active B12 Protocol. That a person can take hydroxcbl for years and it never touches it should be ample demonstration that it doesnt work as it is easily demonstrated that adb12, mb12 and l-carnitine fumarate plus cofactors starts working in minutes to hours. The extreme response demonstrates the extreme deficiency and resulting damage.

    A few people taking this from the b12 deficiency end of things who performed some of the titrations of adb12 of injections from 1 to 25mg or so and various ratios of adb12:mb12 discovered this increase in irritability. This irritability is at the heart of the Mr. Hyde transformation in b12 deficiency (mb12 fades first and fastest) and an overbalance of adb12 to mb12 which occasionally shows up when adb12 injections are in the 10-25mg range. Is this an early Parkinsons indicator? With only 2 people doing this series and only 1 person experiencing the mood/personality change, and others having exactly the opposite effect with high oral doses of both adb12 and LCF.

    Im still working out the details. I will have a micro-titration set of instructions posted shortly. And of course everybody is free to choose whatever hypothesis they want to work from.

    Choosing a strategy

    1 Avoiding everything that attempts to restore the neurons and mitochondria to a non-deficient state as that is too irritating and anxiety provoking. Unfortunately that appears unlikely to change the course of the disease progression.
    2 Rapid titration of the obviously active and effective substances to limit the number of days that have to be endured until the neuron startup effects are over. This will allow the doses to climb towards those needed to allow the body to restore the nervous system to normality (hopefully) with the up-regulated neurological healing the Japanese research speaks of. The accepted therapy doses of l-carnitine for restoration from technical deficiency is 3,000mg IV. A daily oral dose of l-carnitine in the 1000mg range is a quite normal supplement dose. Higher doses restores normality quicker or so goes the theories and actual results with all the items shown to have dose related effects produces more rapid and/or complete healing. LOTS OF UNKNOWNS.
    3 Slow titration of all the active and effective substances bringing them all into balance at each level before increasing to the next step. It may take a year to get the levels up to the usually effective healing levels which may or may not slow down healing. By slow titration the length of onset may be an entire year or more. Feathering it to get things increasing enough to give some adaptation, healing and recovery of function without making it intolerable is not always possible to do when the difference between tolerable results and intolerable may come down to a difference of 10mcg of LCF. LOTS OF UNKNOWNS,


    UNKNOWNS:

    1 Can the damage be reversed
    2 How many years of damage can be reversed
    3 Can damage be stopped from proceeding all the way to Parkinsons (MS, ALS, Alzheimers, SNP etc)
    4 How to reverse the damage and prevent it from continuing.

    Step right up and place your bets ladies and gentlemen, who is going to get sicker and who is going to heal? For that matter who can heal? Who hasnt yet crossed the line of no return into outright irreversible neurological disease. My experience with Subacute Combined Degeneration is that it can be partially reversed and many of the symptoms alleviated and progression very much slowed down. So in SACD some of the demyelization lesions do heal, just as they can in MS. As the limbic system becomes hyper irritable it seems reasonable to expect the same kind of lesions there and to expect them to heal in the same way requiring the same cofactors. We are all in the same boat much more so than many think. We just each are sitting by a different set of leaks.
    Freddd, May 8, 2012


    So, more experimentation is called for. And more patience...(OY!) And more tolerance of the ups and downs (Yikes!)
     
  10. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    @Kathevans
    Thanks so much! I'm having an awful time this morning with IBS, nausea and pain throughout my head. I've been drinking coconut water. I do all day usually. More folate may be it? I use 5Mthf and 2-300mcg of it with methylb and AdB12 dosages. It's tough when we react badly to most everything. Truly appreciate the info you shared---I've read and will read again and make sure I've got it.
     
  11. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Remember that potassium that you EAT usually is good for the following day. Potassium that you take--I take 300mg Potassium Gluconate at a time--is for today. My most noticeable symptoms are heart irregularities and calf cramps. I put 1/2 teaspoon of the Gluconate powder in a full 12-14 oz of water to make it easier on the stomach. I've been taking about 1,000-1,200 mg K+/day. Some days more.

    Right now my ratio of MeB12 to Folate is about 3 or 4:1, or 5,000-6,000mcg MeB12 to 1,600mcg Folate. I spent these last months creeping up. I have to say that it was at the urging of Freddd to increase Folate in larger doses--it happened to be 400mcg folate-- that I went up one day and had much more symptom relief. The problem is, if your body is thirsty for the folate, as mine is, the relief only lasts a brief period--sometimes a day or two, but sometimes only a few hours! As Freddd says, it's learning how to recognize the symptoms as they appear and chasing them down.

    Always experimentation.
     
  12. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    @Kathevans
    I'm going to up the folate next dose...I'll watch and see what occurs and let you know.
    This is a definite experiment!
     
  13. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    @Kathevans
    Seriously, thank you again for pointing out the paradoxical folate insufficiency. I'd heard of it, but I just assume I'm sick and detoxing. I got sick to the point of vomiting last night, and I knew that was it. I've doubled folate, and it may be rocky, but so far I'm keeping food down again. Wish someone could hand you exact ratios ;) I also wonder how much I will have to take eventually to heal? And will I always have to take high doses of b12s and methylfolate? Guess I have to be patient and see what happens.
     
  14. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @Nikki7 Make sure your doctor is aware of all your symptoms and watch for the potassium deficiencies, but as to the MeB12 and Folate ratios, no one can tell you this. You just have to experiment. It probably has to do with your genetic snps. I had a wonderful doc in NYC who was the first to prescribe Methyl folate for me, but I couldn't tolerate it at all--a wreck and up all night on a very tiny dose. What I learned here and with another alternadoc up here in Boston, is that in order for my body/cells to be able to receive the folate, I first had to have MeB12 in them and because of my MTR and MTRR snps, both of them +/+ which means reduced to roughly 30-40% functionality, that meant I had to take larger doses to ensure adequate levels.

    I have only a heterozygous MTHFR gene +/-, which means roughly 70% functionality, so I can handle the Folate more easily...but of course, ONLY if I first have the B12 on board.

    This is why having your genetic information in hand can be helpful. I don't know how much information your doctor got in terms of your genetics, but the site 23andme does a genetic test for $200, that covers most of the important ones. They provide the raw data, then for another $30, I think it is, you run it through an online app and that gives you a specific run-out/pdf that is divided into different sections such as 'detoxification', 'methylation' and so on so you can look at the different pathways and see what needs to be addressed.

    There's a lot of information on this site--I'm constantly discovering new threads I think I should have come across by now, but am always grateful to find something that adds to my understanding.

    I hope the folate does help to settle your stomach. Without the AdoB12 I did much better yesterday and last night--had one of my good nights. No drugs, just a nibble of melatonin. I had a much easier time increasing the MeB12 than I seem to be having with the AdoB12.

    You are more than welcome. Once you know your snps, it may help to find people with a similar genetic profile. But experiences, while there may be similarities, are always unique to each of us. Good luck and take care.
     
    Nikki7 likes this.
  15. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    @Kathevans
    Thanks so much for all of your insight. I have a good doctor...not well versed in methylation though. He ran a test (I've heard of 23andme but not sure what he ran)...I will get his results. He emailed me that I'm heterozygous with methyl folate reductase mutations and am 70% with two pathways inhibited and am 70% impaired at clearing toxins. He just recommended B12 shots and sublinguals...no methyl folate...I'm taking it after coming here because I don't think he realizes the need for both. I will get numbers on those mutations and definitely keep researching. I upped folate and feel better with digestive issues but have an awful headache. I ingest potassium via coconut water probably 2000mg per day.
    Currently taking:
    All vitamins per Freddd
    1 mg adeno
    4-5 mgs methylB
    1500 Mcg methylfolate (this as of today)
    I'll see if headache clears
    The headache is my main issue for now. I can't tell if healing is happening and wish I could. I felt I could tell at first.
    I love the site here...as new symptoms arise, it's great to be able to search it!
    I hope you continue to feel better also and get the adeno going.
     
    Kathevans likes this.

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