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Freddd: Starting Methylation and have a few start up questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd

    Today the parcel arrived from iherb with all the basics and essentials.

    Please bear with my questions. I know the one about starting slowly has been addressed but I cannot find it. Maybe some of these could go into your Protocol sticky??

    1. What is starting slowly for the following:
    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12
    Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg
    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg

    2. Are the above to be taken at the same time? I think you may have said to take Metafolin one hour before mb12 somewhere?
    3. How fast and by how much should the above be increased?
    3. Preferrably, should the MEtafolin be introduced first (as you suggested to another poster yesterday) and then introduce the mb12 later and then the adb12??

    Is it possible that the Metafolin on its own may be sufficient to lift a methylation block in some people?
    4. At full dosage, how much Metafolin should be taken? Given lowest Deplin is 7.5mg, how many Solgars should be taken? Should these be taken with meals or on an empty stomach (I see that you said on a post yesterday to take before food AND with food). I acknowledge that this will vary from person to person but I need a starting target,
    5. At full dose how much Dibencozide should be taken (I see that recently you said 1/4 of the 10mg table every 2-3 days ought to be enough to reach and maintain body equilibrium. But the protocol says from 1 per day to 1 per week
    6. How many Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin to be taken daily? I think you said twice a day somewhere? With food or before?
    7. How much Potassium during start up and how much at maintenance?
    8. Do we need to supplement with p5p or is the multi B sufficient?
    9. Finally, Vit A you say A&D from fish oil, 10,000 Vit A but most fish oils dont contain Vit A whereas cod liver oil does. I happen to have both oils but when I run out, is fish oil preferred over CLO ? If so, then what sort of Vit A should be taken? This type http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Natural-Vitamin-A-D3-250-Softgels-Discontinued-Item/10435?at=0 or this http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Beta-Carotene-25-000-IU-90-Softgels/13446?at=0 or other?


    BIG thanks for your continuous help!
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City


    Hi Topaz,

    What is starting slowly for the following:
    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12
    Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg
    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg


    There is a lot of differring opinion. Let me say that a quarter of each tablet would be a sufficient dose initially. However, to stop some of the paradoxical folate deficiency syndromes requires a larger dose to do it quickly. Dose effect effect is not linear. Whole tablets won't make 4x as much difference, probably less than twice as much.

    If you want to bring one thing on board a day, I would start with the methylfolate, then the adb12 and then the mb12, on succeeding days. That might be gentler on startup, experience and opinion on that varies.

    Are the above to be taken at the same time? I think you may have said to take Metafolin one hour before mb12 somewhere?

    If it makes a difference, it is a difference in the absorbtion of the b12 for some people. Not a consideration for startup, it's more of an individual fine tuning. It can also be in reference to food folate if a person has food folate paradoxical fooate deficiency, preload the receptors with Metafolin before eating.

    How fast and by how much should the above be increased?

    Going faster produces faster results and finishes startup faster. On the other hand some say "too uncomforatable". However a very low dose will stretch out startup almost indefinitely. I've played with maximum dosage a lot. The is a peak of beneficial effect beyond which more doesn't help and at best is expensive without benefit. That is titration for effect. Different people need different realtive amounts of the trinity as well.

    Is it possible that the Metafolin on its own may be sufficient to lift a methylation block in some people?

    Maybe, maybe not. However, there are lots more things b12 does besides methylation.

    At full dose how much Dibencozide should be taken (I see that recently you said 1/4 of the 10mg table every 2-3 days ought to be enough to reach and maintain body equilibrium. But the protocol says from 1 per day to 1 per week

    Some of that may have been in comment to the 3mg size. However, some people need it more often than others. SOme need more than others. That is fine tunig for the person after they are stable on it and can tell what the minimum effective dose is. It may take a year of trials to tell.


    How many Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin to be taken daily? I think you said twice a day somewhere? With food or before?


    Twice a day with food. B-vits can upset the stomach alone or with only eggs or meat. It needs vegggies or fruit or grains or potato or rice to keep stomach comfy. Best method, eat 1/3 of fmeal, mix a vitamin and a bite of foos in middle third of meal untill all vits taken then finish meal. There needs to be food on top of vitamins to avoid stomach upset. A big clumb of all vitamins and no food can cause nausea.

    How much Potassium during start up and how much at maintenance?[/]

    How fast are you forming cells? I would suggest that 1 tablet twice a day is fine until you have a big change such as spasms in the middle of the night or some other things, often on the third or 4th day and then 500mg when the problem happens and increase the amount with meals a coupole of tablets and see if it happens again. It can shift awound. I've taken everywhere from about 400mg (396) to 1800mg a day depending upon what my body is doing. I take a diuretic that increases clearance, Clarance, of potassium, very individual.

    Do we need to supplement with p5p or is the multi B sufficient?

    Don't know. Do a trial later after you are stable on the protocol and see if it makes a difference.

    Finally, Vit A you say A&D from fish oil, 10,000 Vit A but most fish oils dont contain Vit A whereas cod liver oil does. I happen to have both oils but when I run out, is fish oil preferred over CLO ? If so, then what sort of Vit A should be taken?

    On the bottle information it might say 10,000/1000 a & D from Shark liver oil or cod liver oil. There are differences of opinion. However, D from cod liver oil is D3 by current naming. The non carotene A is more effective.

    I didn't mean to imply that the omega3 oils which are also needed, have a and d.

    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-A-D-10-000-400-IU-250-Softgels/385?at=0
    Is just fine or similar ones. You will need additional D as well.
  3. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd

    How many Metafolins daily?

    Is one mb12 taken in say, four doses sufficient or should more than one mb12 tablet be taken daily?

    I plan to do a 1/4 adb12 daily for starters and continue this for a while.

    One final vit A question, the Now product that you linked to is synthetic A (Retinyl Palmitate) whereas the Solgar product that I randomly picked is natural A &D (from fish oil livers - presumably a by-product of CLO production) - shame its discontinued. I have read that the natural Vit A really doesnt have a strict upper limit like the synthetic vit A (Weston A Price are big on this). Do you have any thoughts? (I take D3 on its own already)

    Thanks again
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    I had lost sight on the natural Vi A, By all means that is better. Start with the 1,25mg of a quarter. Then feel free to take additional quarters several times a day which does help the adaptation process. When that has leveled out an become normal start taking halves. That could be 3-6 months so let's discuss things in a responive way as you go along.
  5. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I'm confused about methylb12 dosing. Should I aim to take 5000 mg in one dose every day or split it in many doses? From the posts I read about your protocol, I understood that it's better to reach 5000 mg in one dose and then add additional doses if necessary. Something to do with the depth of penetration in the body but that it was kind of pointless to take 2 or 3 5000 mgs at once.

    What do you suggest? Thx!
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi gu3vara,

    During the intial startup phase, all the tissues throughout the body and CNS are relatively low on b12. The tissues may be short of mb12, adb12 or both.

    BODY
    With adb12 the muscles require most of the adb12. It finds a parking place in the mitochondria and stays there. It takes relatively few doses to fill up and is typically easily maintained by one or two doses a week though some need it more often.

    With mb12 the need for it in any given place is temporary, a cell that is going to divide. The cell has to grab onto it as it goes by. A 99% is said to be excreted within 24 hours and the serum halflife is short and gradually lengthens. A larger dose makes a different effect than several smaller doses in a row. The several doses in the course of the day maintain the serum level relatively evenly for a lot of the day. Many backlogged needs get filled. Some do not. On the other hand one large doses has a short peak that doesn't give a lot of time for a cell to access it. However, certain things that don't respond to a lower serum level peak for longer do respond to a higher peak for a short time, and vice versa. I've called these things for convienience breadth and depth. Maybe they are. It was a pragmatically based distinction. It makes maybe 5% difference in the long run and each way of dosing changes the emphasis of what heals when.

    For me, when I was doing only sublingual, I applied both. I started with 1m and over a few months worked up to several 1mg talbets a day. Then I went to the 5mg, quickly went to several day and then several at a toime and severazl additional singles through the day. At that level both methods ran out of startup effects and I was fully saturated except for the CNS whic responded noticably to single doses of 50mg.

    The single larger dose tended to produce somewhat more intense startup for shorter times. The stretched out doses tended to produce less intense startup but it lasted all day at the same intnsity so it was a good way to go towards saturation without more intensity.

    There really is no answer about what is best. They are slightly different and each eventually ends up in saturation. Doing both reached saturation fastest and the end of startup responses soonest.
  7. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Excellent answer, thx!

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