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Freddd;methyl trapped

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by GenDylan, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. GenDylan

    GenDylan

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    Freddd, please disregard the last convo message i sent to you(not instant message). this is where im at, and what i need figuring now. This isnt just directed at the expert Freddd tho, because im not sure if he will get the chance to see it. anyone who can, please help.
    im Methyl Trapped and i need to know if i only have b12 insufficiency, or b12 AND folate insufficiency. im sure i have b12 insufficiency.
    is this reason to believe i have Folate insufficiency/deficiency???
    - IBS within twenty minutes of ingesting Metafolin. Cheilitis the next day
    - (i never supplemented with an active form of Folate before the one time it gave me the above symptom. ive only taken Folate 3 times,and it was Metafolin)
    - lack of B12 kicks MTHF out of cells and also there are no folate reserves.

    i now know that i have insufficient b12, because i have a total lack of THF to break down histamine. without sufficient b12 a METHYL TRAP occurs, where MTHF does not lose one of its methyl groups to become THF again. - this is whats happening to me.

    i need to know if i also have a folate deficiency/insufficiency. if i have a folate deficiency/, then i will supplement with Metafolin so that i get MTHF into the cell with b12 and i can get THF out of it,,,if i dont have folate deficiency/, then supplementing with Folate will only add onto the load of Folate that the B12 i ingest will have to turn into THF.

    really need help here. my histamine is still so high that its 100% debilitating. any excitement causes a rush of histamine - hotness,redness,itchyness .
     
  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    In general, you want to be taking more B12 than folate to avoid methyl trapping.

    My suggestion would be to stop the folate or whatever is causing the histamine problem. Take several days to let everything settle back down to a baseline.

    Then restart again, but start with B12.

    What amounts of folate and B12 are you taking?

    Have you had any testing such as the 23andme SNP test or the HDRI methylation panel?
     
    helen1 likes this.
  3. GenDylan

    GenDylan

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    The b12 and metafolin hasn't caused any histamine reactions. LMethionine caused all of my histamine problem. I then realized that THF breaks down histamine or histidine ,so I'm probly lacking THF - and my original post in this thread hypothesizes why.
    Yesterday was my first day on mb12, I took 500mcg. Same today so far, but I also added 200mcg metafolin becuase I'm thinking I'm folate deficient - because the first time I took Metafolin,I got deficiency symptoms,,,I'm thinking this means I'm deficient; but really need clarification on this.

    And I'm hoping to get 23me testing in the next month or two. I haven't had any methylation testing, I'm about 2weeks new to methylation
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi GenDylan,

    You know, I have had to start from the beginning of titrations to untangle. I had to test all my assumptions as adding things here and there during the years because they ought to work in xxx way, had gotten me in a tangle with odd effects that I wasn't working out. So during the years I have gone back to basics a number of times.

    I am doing that presently. There are a number of patterns that are mapped out. I had gotten off the known patterns and after that everything I did went further afield and had detrimental side effects.

    I would suggest that you might benefit by dropping ALL your assumptions and explanations. Then try titrating from the beginning in a way to follow the pattern to get the basic healing turned on.

    A good start might be get the basics going, a low dose b-complex twice a day, A, D, E 4000mgs of C or more, magnesium, zinc, calcium and omega3 oils which are far more important than you might think.

    Then a titration of MeCbl AND AdoCbl. If you are comfortable on 1mg of each that is a good starting point. Then a titration of Methylfolate is in order. A relatively low dose of methylfolate can start more healing than it can continue. It isn't an all or nothing business. There are maybe 4 or 5 levels of internal "triage" going on. That means that methylfolate may be enough for use on other levels by depriving one level of the folate needed for healing in order for others to heal. This is similar to how b12 also works. Further because of this partial methylation block and methyltrap may be working from the same set of symptoms they have different causes. The amount of L-methylfolate a person needs depends partially on how their body genetically handles folates like folic acid and veggie folates. Get rid of your assumptions though. The theories are not pragmatically there yet. Working from the MTHR theories that are currently popular doesn't start generalized healing. It gets your self tangled up in words and theories that don't fit together.


    So one might try starting, if already comfortable on those levels or at a fragment of that if not, at that 1mg each of 5 star AdoCbl and MeCbl a day and titrate the l-methylfolate. I have already found in me and others that 4 doses of 200mcg of Mfolate appears superior to one dose of 800mcg daily. If a person isn't taking larger separate doses of B1, B2 and/or B3 then the amount of methylfolate appears most likely to represent how your body handles the other folates. At some point, possibly the same time as when the folate insufficiency starts, the potassium insufficiency could also start. The potassium should be titrated first if you have both sets of symptoms so you can see what is going on. After that initial round is settled and a person is settled in on healing then the clues are much easier at first. When the nervous system first gets going it is overly sensitive to pain and discomforts and all sorts of things. Consider that it can let you see the effects of more AdoCbl or more MeCbl in a short time if more is going to help. After stability is reached with the AdoCbl, MeCbl, methylfolate and potassium then its time to consider the 4th component of the quartet that can even prevent methylation and healing to start up if low enough, L-carnitine fumarate (Maybe ALCAR) and a person needs to determine whether a micro-titration is needed or if a regular titration is suitable by considering the symptoms and earlier responses to the first 3 items.

    The Deadlock Quartet is a 4 way deadlock than can prevent anything from working if one of the items is way low. This is written up much more thoroughly on the headinng LEVELS OF METHYLATION on this same methylation menus.
     
  5. pippisam

    pippisam

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    Please can anyone help? I have been taking methylcobalamin 1000mcgs, lmethylfolate 800mcgs plus a variety of other B vitamins ie.5HTP, P5P, B1 and niacin when I felt I needed it. I had a most amazing week when I started - found the I thought I'd found the elixir of life. However, I am now in more pain than ever with my neck, back of head and my jaw feeling as if they are all going to explode. I have no energy and to be honest feel like giving up on this trail. To compound the issue I am married to a mainstream doctor who does not understand what is going on at all and admits it. I don't want to run three miles every day - just to be free of pain and to have the energy to at least get up and socialise a little. Many thanks

    Forgot to say that I think I may be sensitive to the fillers in my supps. I have tried to order from a company whose products are additive free but I can't as I am not a health professional - well not any more that is!
     
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi pippisam;

    I'm guessing the symptoms you are having are from folate trapping. ( I've had the same ones when I was taking too much folate.)

    It may be a good idea to wait a while before adding it. ( some people need less than others)
    Consider having blood serum and RBC folates measured.

    BTW, I've also been helped by taking either 5HTP, or tryptophan for the headaches and neck pain.
     
  7. pippisam

    pippisam

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    Hi Crux - thank you for answering my question. Fortunately I haven't taken anything today apart from T3 (Cynomel) for thyroid so I'll follow your advice and not take any lmethylfolate to see if that will stop my symptoms. I know I have over the range folate levels from tests six months ago but I thought that taking methylcobalamin would take care of that.
    Do you have any idea why folate levels go high? I wasn't taking any supplements at the time. My homocysteine levels are within range. Thank you once again!
     
  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi pippisam;
    You're asking the same questions as I. This is a difficult problem, and the research isn't completely definitive.

    I'll first bring up methyl groups excess as a potential cause, because this thread is about that. But if methylcobalamin didn't cause side effects of overstimulation, then maybe they're not the cause of the symptoms. Did you find that niacin helped with the symptoms? It can help if the problem is from excess methyl donor intake.

    With the issue of elevated folate...a tough one. It does occur with B12 deficiency, and if that is the cause, then in time, ( not sure how long), and with a sufficient dosage, it will reduce to normal range. ( I've had that happen, but it may have taken a year. That may be because of the dosage, and the quality of the B12 I was taking. Apparently, I need a very high dosage.)

    We may have some inborn disturbance of folate metabolism, even with using active folates. Also, we may have produced too many folate receptors. I've read that this can happen when a parent with folate deficiency produces a child, the child may develop excess folate receptors, ( to compensate?)

    For the past year, I've been careful, ( not perfect), about avoiding fortified foods, but, I still have high serum measures. For now, I'm taking high dose B12, a combination of hydroxo and methyl, 15 mgs. daily. sublingual.

    For about a month, I took EGCG, a green tea extract that may lower folate absorption. ( I also drank green tea.)

    I'm feeling much better, the headaches, (occipital), and neck pain are very mild. ( seem to be going away)

    But, the headaches seem to also be from lowered serotonin, so, they're from more than one cause. Taking tryptophan these past 4 days is also helping very much.

    I plan to have folates measured in the fall, and to monitor my intake. ( balance) There were times when some added folate increased my energy, and helped depression, but, I must be careful not to overdo.

    http://www.metametrixinstitute.org/post/2012/03/27/Folate-Too-Little-Too-Much-or-Just-Right.aspx
     
  9. GenDylan

    GenDylan

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    feel really bad for not responding to my own thread. i just want to thank everyone on the site for the help.
    Thank you Freddd for the help.
    its just a really tough time yall.
    i hope all of you are doing well,and are healthy. really, we all deserve to be healthy. we put in so much work...
     

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