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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
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Fredd vs Rich protocol, which one to chose?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by gu3vara, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Looking at both pools it seems like more people reported major improvements using fredd supplements. I know the size of the sample is too small to draw conclusion but I have a bias toward choosing fredd one because I can find the supplement easily on iherb and I think it's cheaper too.

    If you think I'm better one with one or another for helping my CFS symptoms, please share.

    I'm thinking it could help for some recent symptoms I started having, I started sweating and urinating a lot since june to the point that my body feels totally out of balance, muscles doesn't work at all. I'm guessing vasopressin production is defective and I read that gluthatione depletion could cause that. Strangely, I felt like I was improving before that, maybe detox deplete my gluthatione store, can't say...

    Thx guys!
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, gu3vara.

    I hope you will be able to choose a protocol that will help you, whichever one it is.

    My current thinking about the choice between hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin for treating ME/CFS is still to favor hydroxocobalamin to start with, unless a person has very low glutathione or very low SAMe, or both, on the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel. In those cases, I think the cells will have difficulty making their own methylcobalamin. I note that Dr. Amy Yasko uses a different criterion. She bases this choice on a person's genomic polymorphisms on her nutrigenomic panel, specifically the COMT and VDR polymorphisms. Her thinking is that having the COMT polymorphisms and not having the VDR polymorphism causes a person to have a lower need for methyl groups, and thus hydroxocobalamin would be the choice, and vice versa. So I would say that there is not total agreement on this.

    I also suggest that if a person has tried hydroxocobalamin for 3 months, as part of the simplified protocol, and has not experienced net benefit, it is time to consider some testing to see what is going on, or a change in protocol, if testing is not feasible.

    With regard to dosages, I still favor something like 2 milligrams per day sublingual as the nominal B12 dosage (some may need more), and a few hundred micrograms of the active folates.
    Going much higher with these two seems to cause overdriving of the methylation cycle, which appears to hinder the recovery of glutathione.

    All this having been said, I also acknowledge that there are people who have inborn errors of metabolism in their intracellular B12 processing enzymes (which I think is the case for Freddd himself), and in these cases, going to higher dosages with the coenzyme forms of B12 is likely necessary. It requires specialized testing, done at the University of Toronto, to determine whether these inborn errors are present.

    There may also be people whose blood-brain barrier is not able to transport B12 or folate at normal rates, and these people may need to go to higher dosages, also. Freddd seems to have this issue as well. Lately there has been the discovery in autism that some people develop autoantibodies to the folate receptor in the blood-brain barrier, and this hinders the entry of folate into the brain. This apparently occurs because there are soluble folate receptors in milk, and if they are able to leak from the gut into the blood due to a leaky gut situation, as is common in autism and ME/CFS, then the immune system develops antibodies against them, and these attack the person's own folate receptors. I think the original work on this was done by E.V. Quadros et al, and work in autism has been done by Dr. Dan Rossignol.

    Again, I hope you will be able to choose a protocol that will work for you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Thx for the answer Rich.

    I will go on lower on doses of B12 than Freddd suggest then. Will aim for 2000 mg a day like you suggested. [STRIKE]I already have methyl-b12 and the Dibencozide form at home so I'm tempted to take those instead and not ordering the hydroxycobalamin. Might not be the best argument here, but my financial situation is kinda bad right now...[/STRIKE]

    Edit : changed my mind I just ordered supplements mentioned in your protocol. I was just wondering, could it be a good idea to combine all those different form of B12 (hydroxy, methyl and dibencozide)? I have already some left as I said. Like taking 2000 mcg of hydroxy and add small amounts of the other two (like 500 mcg each). Just to be on the safe side in case my SAMe levels are low, I really can't afford testing now, so it's a bit of a shot in the dark unfortunately.

    I would like to do a methylation panel eventually, might happen when I finally have my disability case settled.

    Thx for the help!
     
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Would recommend starting with hydroxocobalamin

    and working your way up to methylcobalamin. Excessive sweating/urinating, sounds like you might benefit from cobalamin + methylfolate. What do you mean that your muscles don't work? Are you talking about weakness, is it intermittent or continuous, which muscle groups?

     
  5. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    They are twitching, feeling rigid at times, cramping when I walk etc... Like they don't receive enough oxygen or something like that. It's continuous for 2 months now. Mostly thighs and biceps.

    It worsened a lot after I had the (bad) idea to do some weight lifting 2 months ago, when way too far and I struggle walking since, it wasn't that bad before. Lesson learned!
     
  6. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Not sure how much of this is low glutathione and how much is related to electrolyte imbalances. Weakness & intermittent cramping, twitching, all worse with exertion is how I would describe what I have experienced. I think the key here is does it get noticeably worse after you exert yourself Hope you are loading up on magnesium. Sounds like you need to start the meth supplements, and see what kind of response you get. More importantly, try to figure out what is the root of your problems.
     
  7. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    FWIW, that is exactly where I have ended up, I combined elements of Rich's and Fred's protocol based on a trial and error process. This included gradual testing of each supplement, ramping up until I could tell the effect, etc. What I learned was that for me personally (and also for a few others on this combined 'multi-B12' protocol), these three forms of B12 do different things and are all useful. The Methyl B12 seems to help detox, Adenosyl B12 helps the muscles work better (also I've gained some muscle mass from that form), and Hydroxy B12 helps keep the head clear. So the idea that there is just one superior form, that does not make sense to me at all. In fact I've even had some positive experience with Cyano B12, which seems to help energy sometimes.

    The one difference in my approach from theirs is that I found B6 (regular form, NOT the p5p activated) and magnesium chloride to be critical for the B12 to work. Methyl folate does seem to help also, but it causes problems when I take too much, have to be very careful of dose with the methyfolate.
     
  8. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Hey Kurt, what sort of problems re taking too much methylfolate?
     
  9. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Thx for the input Kurt, it made sense to me too.

    I'm just a bit worried about something I read while researching methylfolate, some mentioned that it "feeds" pathogens in a certain way, is there any truth to that? I heard the same thing from iron I think.
     
  10. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Well, yes, folate (any form) is good for healthy cells as well as for cancer cells. Iron is good for healthy cells as well as pathogen cells.
    However don't misunderstand this -- methylation prevents cancer and methylated estrogen has been patented to CURE cancer. If you
    don't have cancer you WANT methylation. DNA must be methylated to prevent cancer. If you HAVE cancer, methylation helps it grow
    same as it helps your own cells grow and divide. Since cancer is fast, you want to slow it down by avoiding methylation (even though
    it is not good for your cells, it is worse for those fast-growing cancer cells). I can find the reference for the methylated estrogen patent
    if anyone is interested. I read it at www.lef.org. Um methylated estrogen already has the methyls attached to the estrogen so that
    is why the cancer cells can't use those methyls.
     

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