Fredd...Rich...Yasko...Methylation...? Help!

[heyitisjustin]

@surfbaby Sounds like you're really on top of this. congrats on getting yourself through some rough times.

My impression is without. Well, that's especially borne out by my experience that taking it sublingually means I'm using 1/2 the amount I was when swallowing it.

Another flag for me to correct in my doc. I take mine at the same time.

I thought one of the supplements (mb12/mfolate) was supposed to be taken away from potassium/vitamin C. Am I remembering this wrong?

 

[ahmo]

@heyitisjustin I don't recall that. Try checking the 1st link in my signature for Freddd's Protocol, from sheclimber.

 

[surfbaby]

@heyitisjustin I don't recall that. Try checking the 1st link in my signature for Freddd's Protocol, from sheclimber.

@ahmo In response to @heyitisjustin both sheclimber's and your Guide to FP it says take methylfolate 30-45 min away from potassium. Don't know about vitamin C though.

Still hoping to hear from you to the rest of the questions I asked in my last post whenever you have time. You can disregard question 5, because I'm already getting used to the new Enzymatic Therapy bottle. In question 6, I have gone back to taking them at the same time but it's confusing because I see conflicting posts about doing it that way or taking the MF 30-60 minutes before MB12 as per your Guide. Maybe Freddd changed it at some point and the only way to figure out which is the latest would be by checking all the posting dates to see which is the most recent. That is beyond what my eyes can do right now.

Thanks for the posting tips! After I recover from my excursion yesterday I will play with them. Hope I can figure them out. My doctor was very excited about this forum and FP. He is one of the only progressive alternative-type MDs in this area who does IV's etc., and didn't know about the methylation process yet. Coincidentally he had just gotten some data on a new patient from Alaska with MTHFR and and was waiting to tell me about it. He was very surprised to find out that's what I came to talk to him about!

 

[ahmo]

When you answered my questions, how were you able to insert a copy of my question (or just a portion of it ) right above your answer?

This is an excellent forum feature. I highlight the part of the post I want to quote and a prompt appears with a choice between reply or multiquote. If there's just a single thing you want to respond to, use reply. In the case of multiple points, like this one, I use multiquote, and each one is held on a clipboard. When I'm ready to post, there's a tab to insert quotes at bottom left of comment box.

Here's another place to get you aquainted w/ pr, a FAQ/Help page.

So now I'm having symptoms at the 1/2 tablet 3x/day dose I was on with the old bottle. I have to go to the doctor and market tomorrow and won't be able to do that if I'm symptomatic, so do you have any suggestions on how to work around this? I don't want to go all the way back down to 1/

I guess this is the one no longer needing an ansswer...

is there a reason you take your PM dose of MF without the MB12? Are you still doing transdermal, if so what is the advantage, and does that mean some kind of patch? What brand of sublingual MF do you take, and what is the advantage

I'm only taking B12 once a day, early AM. I haven't taken it twice since my dosages have come down. I establish all my dosages by self-testing, and my body just wants the single dose. It's something I could experiment with. I don't think there's a specific sublingual folate. I've used now several types: Life Extension caps, and Solagar and Life Extension tablets. Now that I'm only using 2mg. I've been enjoying LE 1000mcg tablets. They dissolve v quickly, it just seems that sublingual is far more effective, at least for me and a few around here.

I read something about Freddd or someone else not feeling as well when they go more than 6 hours apart, but I can't remember where. Also I hope it's ok that I have been substituting the amount of MF in my B-complex for the equal amount in the Solgar, otherwise the extra gives me symptoms for now, but I do have to take the B-complex with food.

The dosage suggestions are just that, suggestions. Our real path to progress is monitoring our symptoms.

My doctor was very excited about this forum and FP. He is one of the only progressive alternative-type MDs in this area who does IV's etc., and didn't know about the methylation process yet. Coincidentally he had just gotten some data on a new patient from Alaska with MTHFR and and was waiting to tell me about it. He was very surprised to find out that's what I came to talk to him about!

You are so lucky to have such a Doc!!!

Hope I've gotten this all. I'm a bit foggy.

 

[heyitisjustin]

I I'm only taking B12 once a day, early AM. I haven't taken it twice since my dosages have come down. I establish all my dosages by self-testing, and my body just wants the single dose. It's something I could experiment with. I don't think there's a specific sublingual folate. I've used now several types: Life Extension caps, and Solagar and Life Extension tablets. Now that I'm only using 2mg. I've been enjoying LE 1000mcg tablets. They dissolve v quickly, it just seems that sublingual is far more effective, at least for me and a few around here.

How can you tell that you need more/less folate? I hadn't heard that folate needed to be sublingual so I was just using solgar. I don't seem to feel much of a difference based on how much I take.

I thought I noticed methylfolate keeping me awake when I took it late at night. I will have to reconsider trying to take it later in the day.

 

[ahmo]

How can you tell that you need more/less folate? I hadn't heard that folate needed to be sublingual so I was just using solgar. I don't seem to feel much of a difference based on how much I take.

I thought I noticed methylfolate keeping me awake when I took it late at night. I will have to reconsider trying to take it later in the day.

Folate does not need to be taken sublingual. But I, along w/ some others, have found that sublingual means I need 1/2 the amount as when I swallow it. It's a real money saver, as folate in large doses is not cheap. I've sued Solgar tabs, and Life Extension 5mg and 1mg caps, and now LE tabs. All have been more efficiently delivered sublingually, all have worked well.

I don't know what to comment, as you say you're not feeling much from it. Maybe you don't need it, maybe you're at the right dose....

For me, just as Fred noted, my symptoms of folate deficiency are skin related. Hair loss, which can vary from AM to PM; acne type lesions; other pimples, lesions; blood blisters in my mouth.

At times when I was increasing my dose, by 100-200mcg every day or two, I would have restlessness, histamine issues, including at night. I always had good results buy taking a 1mg B12 at those times. Others use niacin to dampen the reaction.

 

[surfbaby]

This is an excellent forum feature. I highlight the part of the post I want to quote and a prompt appears with a choice between reply or multiquote. If there's just a single thing you want to respond to, use reply. In the case of multiple points, like this one, I use multiquote, and each one is held on a clipboard. When I'm ready to post, there's a tab to insert quotes at bottom left of comment box.

Here's another place to get you aquainted w/ pr, a FAQ/Help page.
I guess this is the one no longer needing an ansswer...

I'm only taking B12 once a day, early AM. I haven't taken it twice since my dosages have come down. I establish all my dosages by self-testing, and my body just wants the single dose. It's something I could experiment with. I don't think there's a specific sublingual folate. I've used now several types: Life Extension caps, and Solagar and Life Extension tablets. Now that I'm only using 2mg. I've been enjoying LE 1000mcg tablets. They dissolve v quickly, it just seems that sublingual is far more effective, at least for me and a few around here.

The dosage suggestions are just that, suggestions. Our real path to progress is monitoring our symptoms.

You are so lucky to have such a Doc!!!

Hope I've gotten this all. I'm a bit foggy.

@ahmo I am also a bit foggy! Having some problems with the protocol and hoping for your input:

1. Some of these issues I mentioned before, and you weren't sure. Is there anyway we can ask someone else that you might recommend? Haven't had a chance to try all the posting tips you gave me yet or even find an avatar, because still recovering from last excursion and some negative protocol reactions, and have had to do so much protocol research that my eyes are really paying a price, tho I think the MB12 is slowly improving my eyes! Or is it better to start a new thread and just put it out there? It seems like it would be better to direct at perhaps some senior members that you might suggest since Freddd hasn't posted for awhile. I found how to start a conversation, but how do you make something private?

2. Tried 1/8 Anabol Naturals sublingual yesterday but still way too strong (approx. 1,000 mcg of 8,600 mcg elemental AdB12 from 10,000 mcg tablet). AdB12 always triggers too much of a speedy feeling, tightness in my chest and a little asthma, but it wasn't as bad as a comparable dose of the old Country Life I had. AdB12 has been the hardest part of the protocol for me. For some reason I can handle it better late at night when really tired, but I still have a little asthma the next day. I will try more of a crumb size especially if I try to do it more often, but I think I'm one of those who does better at just taking it 1-2x/week. I am confused on one point: In Getting Started in your Guide, it says to take the MB12 and crumb of AdB12 at the same time. However in 3e of sheclimber's Guide, it says to replace your morning MB12 dose with AdB12 for 1 day (a crumb or more). I'm not sure if that means just the first day you try it or all the time. I know that Freddd replaces his MB12 dose with AdB12 but he only does it 1x/week and is taking large amounts of both. I've also seen posts by Freddd saying to do them together with the crumb or more. I'm thinking when someone is just starting off at low doses like me, maybe the replacing thing doesn't apply except perhaps on the first dose so you can see how it makes you feel. What do you think? You also mentioned you take your AdB12 on a day without folate. Of course you're much more advanced than I am, and I can't do that yet because I really feel it when I don't get MF regularly. Could send me some links to the recent comments you said Freddd made about AdB12 being absorbed better on a day without folate, so I can figure out at what point I might need to start doing that?

3. Sorry to go back to this one again, but hoping you can direct me to some other experienced members to ask, because you thought you might have been mistaken in your Guide, but I'm not sure that you were. I researched further taking the MF and MB12 at the same time as per sheclimber's guide, or taking the MF 30-60 minutes before the MB12 as per yours. I know you just told me you take yours at the same time, but I think for someone just starting up, it would be important to know the best way for a newbie. In Freddd's posts I've seen him recommend taking the MF 30-60 minutes before MB12 a couple times, but often his posts are in response to a particular situation, so hard to gauge if it's usually preferred for everyone.

Here is a quote by Freddd: "I would start the methylfolate 30-60 minutes before putting the b12 tablet under my lip. The presence of methylfolate helps retain b12 much better. When they are started together, donut hole folate deficiency and low potassium typically occur on the third day." (I'm not sure when he says 'when they are started together' does he mean only at the initial startup or every time you take them. This 12/19/13 quote came from page 8 of Freddd's thread called Active B12 Protocol Basics where he was explaining to someone how to startup FP after already being on another protocol.)

As I previously mentioned, from sheclimber's guide it says "Freddd: The MeB12 has to come before the methylfolate to protect your neurology. So swallow the folate and putting the ENZY in your mouth at the same time will work well on both counts." I wonder if he meant only taking the MB12 first at the protocol startup before you even begin adding in the MF, because I know high MF without the MB12 can cause B12 deficiency. Since MB12 stays in your system longer than MF, if you've already been doing the protocol for a few days, then you would already have some MB12 in place before adding in the MF. In the How I Recovered - Active B12 Therapy and Methylation FAQ it says "MB12 is protective of the neurology" and I've seen posts by Freddd saying to be sure you're taking MB12 when taking MF in general, but can't find yet where he says to take MB12 before or at the same time as MF at every dose. I'm starting to wonder if I should go back to taking MF 30-60 minutes prior to MB12 as per your Guide and Freddd's quote in the previous paragraph. Hopefully someone else might be able to shed some light on this, perhaps also sheclimber and the person who wrote the How I Recovered FAQ (do you know who that was?).

4. This is another repeat question that you were unsure about that I'm hoping you can recommend someone else for me to ask. I mentioned that I was going to try the Acetyl l-Carnitine primarily because I read that it helps with brain functioning as well as nerve cell functioning (I've had a lot of brain issues from this illness and probably old head injuries), and also because I had such a hard time adding in LCF. It's a little hard to accurately compare the two now, because at 1/8 capsule daily of LCF for the past week I am starting to adapt to it. When I initially took a whole capsule of LCF it made my chest tight and revved me up like the AdB12, but I adapted to the 1/8 capsule LCF quickly to where now I do feel a little more energy, not too uncomfortably, but I get tired again in the afternoon. I was thinking about adding a 2nd dose in the afternoon per Freddd, so yesterday I decided to try 1/8 capsule of the ALCAR. It quickly made me feel a little more clear mentally and gave me a light energy boost that was definitely more pleasant than the first time I tried 1/8 of LCF. The only negative side effect I noticed was a little tightening in my mid and lower back, but that seemed to pass. I decided to try 1/8 ALCAR again this morning, and had the increased mental clarity and a little more energy, not quite as much as yesterday, and a little tightness in my mid back again and this time chest too, but I am also having symptoms from increasing my MF and MB12 today. I don't know how I can tell if I'm in the 10% who do better with ALCAR though, because it is known to give most people mental clarity anyway. I would hate to switch and then find out later that I really needed the LCF, because it sounds like the odds of me being in the 90% is a lot greater than the 10%. Can't find anything in the posts about how to tell which one you are, so hopefully someone in the forum knows how to tell!

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[ahmo]

Or is it better to start a new thread and just put it out there?

This is a great idea. You'll get a title that will attract people to help: B12/folate start-up problems, or something. Go to the title of this thread and you'll see a grey line "Detox, Methylation, B12..." Click on that, and you'll get to a page where you'll find a blue "new thread" tab on upper right.

Some of these issues I mentioned before, and you weren't sure. Is there anyway we can ask someone else that you might recommend?

I don't know which questions. See above, start a new thread.

Also, it's really helpful to break your paragraphs. It's really hard to focus on such a lot of text.

AdB12 always triggers too much of a speedy feeling, tightness in my chest and a little asthma, but it wasn't as bad as a comparable dose of the old Country Life I had. AdB12 has been the hardest part of the protocol for me

Don't push it. Getting the folate and MB12 are really the priorities.

In Getting Started in your Guide, it says to take the MB12 and crumb of AdB12 at the same time. However in 3e of sheclimber's Guide, it says to replace your morning MB12 dose with AdB12 for 1 day (a crumb or more).

That's another thing that has not been edited in my Guid. I have a few corrections overdue. Fred's most recent suggestion is on a day w/o MB12.

What do you think? You also mentioned you take your AdB12 on a day without folate.

Misspoke..I take AdB12 on a day w/o MB12. I take folate daily.

I know you just told me you take yours at the same time, but I think for someone just starting up, it would be important to know the best way for a newbie.

I have always taken them together, as far as I know that's how Fred was doing it. Truly, it doesn't matter.

I don't know how I can tell if I'm in the 10% who do better with ALCAR though, because it is known to give most people mental clarity anyway.

You will only know by trying. I used ALCAR for some time, before the protocol. When I tried it, I felt nothing. I tried another 1 or 2 forms of carnitine, felt nothing. When I finally used Fumarate, I felt immediate brightening. It was unmistakable. There's info from Fred in my Guide re LCF and anxiety.

 

[surfbaby]

This is a great idea. You'll get a title that will attract people to help: B12/folate start-up problems, or something. Go to the title of this thread and you'll see a grey line "Detox, Methylation, B12..." Click on that, and you'll get to a page where you'll find a blue "new thread" tab on upper right.

@ahmo I am trying the multi-quote, so I hope it comes out right. I will try starting new threads when I feel more composed. I will also take your suggestion about breaking up paragraphs. I have a problem-solving mind, so when I come across contradictory information, I try to find the right answer. I am learning in FP there is not always one right answer for everyone. However I wish it was possible to ask Freddd about some of these things. I notice he hasn't been on the forum since 8/15. Is it usual for him to take breaks like this?

Misspoke..I take AdB12 on a day w/o MB12. I take folate daily.

You said Freddd's recent suggestion was to take AdB12 on a day without MB12. On his posts that I saw, he said that on a day when he took AdB12 he substituted it for one of his MB12 doses, not that he eliminated MB12 for the entire day. Did that change?

You will only know by trying. I used ALCAR for some time, before the protocol. When I tried it, I felt nothing. I tried another 1 or 2 forms of carnitine, felt nothing. When I finally used Fumarate, I felt immediate brightening. It was unmistakable. There's info from Fred in my Guide re LCF and anxiety.

Can you describe the immediate brightening that you got from LCF? When I take the ALCAR, I do get a mental clarity soon after I take it, but the energy in my body takes longer to come on, and is more subtle than with LCF. When I take LCF, I feel more speeded up in my body with a tightness in my chest. No anxiety, just uncomfortable. At 1/8 capsule, I started getting used to it though. I tried the ALCAR 1-2 weeks after LCF and at 1/8 capsule it felt very pleasant especially mental clarity. I wouldn't call it an immediate unmistakable brightening though. Maybe it's because I'm taking such low doses?

I know the primary reason for taking carnitine is to start the energy in your body, so maybe the mental clarity isn't the most important thing? I'm going to try LCF again for a few days to compare again. Freddd said it wouldn't work to mix them. By the way, when I tried proprionyl-l-carnitine 2 years ago, I felt nothing, but that wasn't the case with ALCAR. It's just not as intense as LCF for me, but I want to do the correct one that will get the energy going for me, even though I like the ALCAR more for the mental clarity.

Just wondering where you got the beautiful picture for your avatar? I am having a hard time finding one. Thanks for your support!

 

[ahmo]

However I wish it was possible to ask Freddd about some of these things. I notice he hasn't been on the forum since 8/15. Is it usual for him to take breaks like this?

During the past year Fred hasn't been around much.

You said Freddd's recent suggestion was to take AdB12 on a day without MB12. On his posts that I saw, he said that on a day when he took AdB12 he substituted it for one of his MB12 doses, not that he eliminated MB12 for the entire day. Did that change?

I don't know. If you have it, please share the link where he said that, so I can see if it contradicts what I remember.

The reason I compiled A Guide to FP is because I have very scant working memory. It took me countless hours to understand the elements of the protocol, my brain was far worse then than it is now. Since I had compiled so many references for myself, I decided to consolidate them for others. The least reliable info in my Guide is that at the beginning, where I've summarized the beginning protocol. I found getting that paragraph together more challenging than organizing the rest of the info. Because my brain is so unreliable. The other additions/summaries linked in my signature came after my compilation, and may have more reliable information for you. I don't have answers to many things, because what I have to go on is my experience, and the notes I compiled.

Can you describe the immediate brightening that you got from LCF? When I take the ALCAR, I do get a mental clarity soon after I take it, but the energy in my body takes longer to come on, and is more subtle than with LCF.

Exactly what it says, what Fred repeatedly said: As if lights turned on in my brain. Immediately. More recently, when I'd already been able to decrease my DQ supps, I learned that ALCAR is very helpful as an antioxidant. As, indeed, Mfolate is. For a time, until I found antioxidants my body preffered, I used small amounts of it for this, in addition to my regular LCF.

Just wondering where you got the beautiful picture for your avatar?

BTW, good job w/ multiquotes. I had scanned a greeting card some years ago, that's my avi. In my search engine (wonderful Ecosia, says they plant a tree for each search), I've found that I can type almost anything into the search, then click images, and get pages of choices. Or, you can try picgifs.com, they have clipart and lot's of different images. You can type the topic you're interested in into the search box there.

 

[surfbaby]

@ahmo Thanks for the avatar tips! Btw, please know how invaluable your Guide is, even if you feel you might need to make minor corrections in the future. I can appreciate times when you've had brain issues, as I've had them too, and between that and my eye issues, I couldn't compile a Guide like you did.

I don't know. If you have it, please share the link where he said that, so I can see if it contradicts what I remember.

This Freddd quote actually comes from Page 5 of your Guide to FP and the link to the post is also on that page, but I have seen it elsewhere too (of course he is using very high doses): "I find that the MeCbl and AdoCbl each work better when just the one thing is the majority present in blood. I skip one dose of MeCbl that day."

The other additions/summaries linked in my signature came after my compilation, and may have more reliable information for you.

What does it mean when you refer to something linked in your signature? For example, once in a post when you were referring to your Guide to FP, you said it was the "2nd link in my signature." What does that mean and where do I find these links in your signature? I did eventually find the link to your Guide, but just randomly by searching. You don't want to know how long that took, ha!

I learned that ALCAR is very helpful as an antioxidant. As, indeed, Mfolate is. For a time, until I found antioxidants my body preffered, I used small amounts of it for this, in addition to my regular LCF.

Ironically I had a weird ALCAR (I think) experience today. I felt great this morning even after increasing each of my MF and MB12 dosages by 1/4 tablet yesterday. However after doing too much online, I started having terrible brain fog, so I decided to double the amount of ALCAR. I still had the brain fog, but felt happier about it for some reason. 1 to 2 hours later, I started feeling really really happy, almost drunk. That lasted until shortly thereafter when I took my next dose of MF/MB12, and almost immediately I felt fine again. I couldn't find that exact scenario in the list of symptoms, but maybe it was paradoxical folate deficiency or methyltrap, since it corrected after I took MF/MB12. I didn't have any other symptoms.

Anyway I think that was a sign to go back to LCF again tomorrow, but I will probably also take your suggestion about taking ALCAR in small quantities for antioxidant purposes and mental clarity, since LCF doesn't seem to do that for me yet. Do you think I should take them away from each other?

 

[ahmo]

I find that the MeCbl and AdoCbl each work better when just the one thing is the majority present in blood. I skip one dose of MeCbl that day."

This is the typical sort of error for me to make. I remembered it as on a day w/o MB12, clearly I'm wrong.

What does it mean when you refer to something linked in your signature?

All this stuff that appears at the bottom of my posts. You can add your own to your signature by going to your name in the upper right of any page you're on. When you hover there, you;ll see a link to Signature. ,

ME/CFS since 2003; hypothyroid since 13 yo; dx + successful supp for pyroluria 2012; GAPS diet from 1/2012; Freddd's Protocol from 3/2013
++ MAO +/- COMT V158, H62; VDR Bsm, Taq; MTHFR C677, A1298; MTRR H595, A66, K350; BHMT 2,4,8; CBS 699
Freddd's Protocol guide1,guide2, 3, 4 - Martin Pall ,video - Coffee Enemas - Methylation for Dummies - FMN

1 to 2 hours later, I started feeling really really happy, almost drunk.

This sounds like the euphoria I sometimes experienced when increasing folate. Fred has mentioned this euphoria. I don't know how this relates to ALCAR.

but I will probably also take your suggestion about taking ALCAR in small quantities for antioxidant purposes and mental clarity, since LCF doesn't seem to do that for me yet. Do you think I should take them away from each other?

Yes.