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FREDD - questions re BP and potassium

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Mary, May 18, 2011.

  1. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I had posted earlier about my blood pressure as well as energy going up on Freddds protocol, and when I would take potassium, my BP would go back down to the normal range, so I was using that as a gauge to determine when to take the potassium which Freddd has stated is crucial when doing his protocol.

    So last week I had to have a colonoscopy. I stopped most of Freddds supps because I did not want to have to be fooling around with potassium or electrolyte levels while drinking that horrible stuff they make you drink. I crashed the day after the procedure (no big surprise) and after recovering from the crash, I restarted Freddds supps but still felt rather tired. My BP was down, never going up (staying around 115 or even less) so I didnt take any potassium. And the fatigue continued, I would wake up achey.

    And then yesterday the figurative lightbulb went on over my head and I thought, potassium! Even though my BP was still low. Anyways, I took 2 tabs yesterday and by last night energy was coming back.

    So I am puzzled by this whole experience, the relationship of potassium to BP (the week before last it was going up to 142 (which it never does) and then back down after taking potassium), and then my BP suddenly not going up as it was in prior weeks.

    And I havent had any cardiac symptoms when my potassium is low, just fatigue. But I think I learned my lesson this time and will just take potassium regularly regardless of my BP etc.

    Freddd - do you have any thoughts on all of this?

    Mary
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mary,

    If you research the symptoms of low potassium you will see a carload. For me, the low potassium symptoms come on in a graded fashion. First I get mood changes followed by terrible muscle spasms, then fatigue and more mood changes then increased BP and then heart palpitations. This can take from 1 day tot 3-4 weeks to work through the symptoms depending upon how quickly SERUM potassium is dropping. If serum potassium stays down then the body potassium starts coming down and things get a lot worse before eventual death caused by muscles unable to work including heart and breathing.

    I'm all too familiar with the Gatoraide cocktail for the colonoscopy. While the initial period is going on and other periods as well, such as rebuilding muscles, more potassium is needed daily. As you are coming off of a sustained paradoxical folate deficiency in which cells are not being made at full speed there is a backlog of repair that may take 9 months to get through. Each time you have to take extra potassium, increase your daily amount by 2 tablets until no extra is needed. Then later come down by one tablet each 2 weeks as long as no symptoms arise. If you have to take an extra dose, then increase two tablets there and maintain. Good luck.
     
  3. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Thanks, Freddd - I am still incredibly grateful for your theory and all your knowledge re the paradoxical folate deficiency. This information was not available anywhere else to my knowledge, and I think has the potential for helping me (and others) enormously. I have felt better (when I get the potassium right) than I have for a long time, so am crossing my fingers. I also will be starting systemic enzymes in an attempt to deal with crashing or post-exertional malaise (PEM), which still happens to me. Here's an article you may find interesting that I came across when trying to figure out the why of crashing. I had always assumed it was due to lack of energy but then I looked at it in a different way, wondering if PEM was the result of exercise itself, of byproducts of exercise - the similarities between PEM and the DOMS talked about in the article is striking: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/south127.htm

    Mary
     
  4. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    Mary

    My two pence worth on the question of potassium levels in CFS patients which may explain some of your symptoms.

    I had fairly large swings in serum potassium levels which were not based on diet or supplementation.

    This puzzled me until somebody pointed out that PWC's have constantly varying amounts of cell dieoff ( this is shown by the Cell Free DNA Test) and when cells die they not only give up their DNA, they also give up their potassium which can cause the varying levels in my serum potassium and changes in BP. Food for thought.
     
  5. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Thanks, liverock. That's a very interesting idea. I do have high levels of cell free dna (I had the test done by Sarah Myhill's office (via fedex)) so taht definitely could explain some of my BP fluctuations.

    But I really didn't have these BP fluctuations before starting Freddd's protocol. He says that when restarting methylation by using methylfolate, avoiding folic acid, using methly B 12 and the other supplements in his regimen, that one could very quickly develop a potassium deficiency, or rather one's need for potassium greatly increases, which is why I even thought of it. I wish there was a way to tell on a daily basis what one's levels were. In any event, I have read that the daily requirement for potassium is 3500 to 5000 mg., and each potassium tablet has 99 mg., so it shouldn't be a problem taking 3 tabs a day, and my body does react to that amount - my energy comes back, and BP usually goes down. My energy is better on Freddd's protocol. It is just a little unnerving to see all these changes, but I am feeling better so will keep at it.
     
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mary.

    I think this is a great choice of words! Potassium is very important for the nervous system! Sorry that it IS unnerving, though. :)-)

    Rich
     
  7. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Mary,
    I also have had a lot of swings and issues on several B12 protocols, and potassium was involved. One thing that helped me was to change to a better absorbed form of magnesium, which is magnesium chloride. Magnesium deficiency causes potassium wasting, and it seems that a B12 protocol amplifies that situation, perhaps the extra B vitamins are placing more demand on magnesium (mag is important in methylation). Anyway, taking extra magnesium is critical in my case, for B12 to work. I still need to add potassium, but not as much. And the mag chloride form is far better than other forms I have tried. Just a thought.
     
  8. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt, what brand magnsium chloride are you taking and how much? Just out of curiosity, are you taking calcium and what is the ratio to magnesium? Thanks, Shellbell
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    In various readings I have seen magnesium called the "substrate" for b12 activities. It is critical to to have enough magnesium so that b12 cab be effective.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Liverock,

    When the cell dieoff and replacement are out of balance potassium fluctuates. So when cell formation is hindered by lack of mb12, adb12, methylfolate and a number of other things, cells die and are not replaced and potassium goes up. When the cell replacement starts with these items, and others, potassium goes down until the backlogged healing is completed.
     
  11. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    I use Alta brand mag chloride, just one tablet most days. And I don't take extra calcium most days as I tolerate yogurt well (take that for the probiotic and calcium). Several family members are now also taking Alta mag chloride, it helps them all, is calming. I don't think there is a set ratio for mag vs calcium if your goal is simply to have enough mag for the potassium and methylation improvement. But if you are trying to absorb calcium better, that might be a separate issue and other forms of magnesium might work there. For some reason though only the chloride form reduces the need for potassium in my case. Perhaps that form is more active in the type of reactions involved in B12 metabolism, hard to say.
     
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I take the same brand, when I remember anyway. It is interesting that the Alta mag chloride has only 67 mgs of elemental magnesium per tablet, but perhaps you're right -- it's the form of mag that is most easily metabolized and used by the body?

    I do not seem to get any 'looseness' shall we say, from this form. Mag glycinate was also okay, but if I took more than 2 caps a day...well, you know.

    The potassium connection is interesting. My potassium has always been high in relation to sodium, and I always seemed to get more twitchy on high potassium foods, but then again, wasn't doing the b12's regularily. Will be interesting to see how that changes, but at least most common vegetables and some fruits are quite high in potassium...


    p.s. my doc said that glycine helps magnesium "get to where it needs to go". ???
     
  13. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Ahhh Rich, you love puns too - good eye! I hadn't even noticed this one, but of course the worse they are the better, right?

    By the way, do you have any input on this whole potassium/methylation issue? or an easy way to tell one's potassium levels without blood work? Also, everything I read says on the one hand to be so careful with potassium supplements, but on the other hand says it's almost impossible to od on potassium taking it orally, unless you have kidney problems. And the 99 mg. dose is quite low compared to daily requirements. So do you have any input on the safety of potassium supps or anything related to all of this? (apart from puns? ;D)

    Mary
     
  14. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Kurt - thanks so much for the info re magnesium and B12. I am deficient in magnesium, was taking mag citrate for several years and just recently switched to magnesium glycinate, which Richvank says is the best absorbed form. I did start sleeping better after starting the magneium glycinate, but will do some research on magnesium choride. And I'll have to read about potassium wasting - that's a new one for me, I just saw this term for the first time a day or two ago on this board. There's so much to keep track of ... Anyways, thanks again - I really appreciate the info.

    Mary
     
  15. tealady

    tealady

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    OK, Its me with anxiety issue sagin I guess. This is what I (and another friend have learned over the years).I just would like to add that there IS a danger withtoo MUCh potassium as wellas too little.
    Potassium is needed to get magnesium into the cells. It controls heart function (like the long QT gap I think from memory if you are low on potassium).
    You need to take magnesium with calcium, and a little potassium usually to get the magneium into the cells.
    Magnesium chloride is great if you can get it. I tried to make my own many years ago, but I never managed to get it pure enough.
    I like magnesium taurinate (Now foods) with P-5_P form of B6 as an occasional supplement, and others like magnesium malate.
    A great guide to potassium is to eat bananas, when you've had enough you generally have enough potassium..at least that's what my body tells me.
    Also lite salt gives you potassium instead of sodium (in Austraia anyway).
    You need to get a blood panel with sodium, potassium and you can get chloride, bicarbonate, magnesium too in the panel.
    I have gone up and down in potassium and sodium being over or near top and bottom of ranges when I was adding in supps, so you really need to be careful.
    I did have heart palps and differences in functions and my heart is still not in normal rthym on testing, and I get puffed and my heart races easily. When starting T4 (thryoid meds) you often get potassium/sodium/heart problems. One of my friends wife almost died (heart) until he found out when she was in intensive care about the potassium needed to get magnesium into the cells and the long Q-T gap I think?..Its a while agao, so my memory is not great, sorry.
    Just be careful and don't just add in postassium indiscriminately..and more is not better with this stuff etc. best to just listen to your bpody if you like eating bananas and confirm with a blood test. Again get the actual nos not (in normal range etc) from the doc.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Tealady,

    Tests are very good for potassium. Unfortunately the serum potassium can vary so much in a few days that it is impossible to test often enough to manage it. I have found the best way is to learn what one's early onset low potassium symptoms are and take the amount of potassium needed to relieve the symptoms and then to up one's daily potassium supplement a little and make such an adjustment each time extra potassium has to be taken for symptoms. After a couple of months of no low potassium symptoms reduce by a tablet a week until there are symptoms again and up two tablets until something changes. One can take a lot of potassium and it goes into tissues without a problem until the tissues are all full up and then serum potassium goes up suddenly. It took me 2 years of 1000mg/day to get up to 4.6. I had a bout of paradoxical folate deficiency decreasing the need for potassium which I decreased until it was corrected by Metafolin and then suddenly had to up my potassium by 50% daily. While losalt can help, especially in a sudden attack it gives no degree of control for titrating or reduction with any accuracy. While the theory of bananas is nice, the supplements act far faster (hours faster) when you are being crippled by out of control spasms and allow more control. I eat a banana every day along with other tings with potassium. It looks like I would need to eat about 10 a day to control the problem.
     
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mary.

    I'm not sure that I have much to add to what has already been posted about potassium. The normal daily intake is about 4 or 5 grams, and the normal minimum requirement is about 2 grams per day. Because potassium is the main cation inside the cells of both plants and animals, whole foods that contain intact cells are generally high in potassium, so people who eat these foods usually receive enough potassium, and the kidneys excrete the excess in the urine. It's true that there are problems if potassium is too high or too low. It's also true that if the kidneys are working well, there is pretty good protection against going too high in potassium by eating foods that are high in potassium. It is possible to do that, though, for example taking large amounts of potassium supplements, or receiving too much potassium by IV.

    I think that freddd's advice about learning what symptoms develop when potassium is too high or too low is a good one if a person is on a treatment of the type he uses, that involves taking the active forms of B12 sublingually in multimilligram quantities per day. It appears that this type of treatment can produce rapid changes in potassium demand, because the normal cellular controls are bypassed, and it's important to prevent potassium from going too low or too high. Particularly important are symptoms related to the heartbeat.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  18. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Thanks everyone for all your input. I am going to up my magnesium intake by using magnesium oil (magnesium chloride) in addition to the magnesium glycinate I'm already taking. A couple of tests have confirmed I'm low in magnesium and I understand that it can be rather difficult to get magnesium levels up to where they should be. I will continue supplementing with potassium tabs very gradually as symptoms warrant. The potassium tabs have helped with the fatigue which generally hits after a couple of days of energy on Freddd's protocol. And I'm going to eat more potassium rich foods.

    There is no magic bullet - more like a shotgun blast, trying to get all the right pellets together! :D
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I have seen plenty of evidence right here on this board that when hydroxcbl is effective and methylation starts up which starts up cell formation, which is the whole point of taking the cobalamin/folate combo of whatever forms, the same potassium decrease occurs. Only it has been called "detox" along with paradoxical folate deficiency being called "detox" and glutathione induced folate deficiency being called "detox" and NAC induced folate deficiency being called "detox". As many labs set 3.5 as the low alert level and people, including me, can start having low potassium symptoms around 4.2 or so it isn't recognized.

    Deplin (pure Metafolin) side effects
    Are there side effects with Deplin? http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,WhatToExpect
    L-methylfolate was well tolerated in both short-term and long-term trials. Side effects did not differ from a sugar pill (placebo).15-18 Deplin has not been associated with weight gain, sexual dysfunction, nausea, or akathisia.15-21

    http://www.drugs.com/sfx/cerefolin-w....htmlCerefolin with NAC

    All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Cerefolin with NAC:
    Bloated feeling; headache; itching; mild diarrhea; mild fever; nausea; vomiting.
    Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Cerefolin with NAC:
    Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); lower back or side pain.
    So we see these side effects for Metafolin with NAC and NONE of them for pure Metafolin. These NAC side effects are commonly called "NAC detox" and are in fact identical with severe induced folate effects. Notice the increase in allergic response and the IBS onset. Also identical with "glutathione detox" effects. Also identical with paradoxical folate deficiency effects. The Cerefolin with NAC list is not a complete list, just the consumer list. I'm still chasing down that professional list.
     
  20. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    My Urologist wants me to take KDur to cut down the kidney stones I continue to make. My Citrate level is low. I took about half the dosage he wanted and got spooked after talking to a pharmacist about how overdose is irreversable. I know he will take blood tests but I am still so afraid to take it every day. I take a lot of supplements but this one scares me. I have been trying to drink plenty of lemon/lime water and some Apple Cider Vinegar. Urologists really like using the K Dur, they say it is very effective. Scary though.

    Any advice?
     

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