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Fraud Case Seen as a Red Flag for Psychology Research

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by kaffiend, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Hi wdb

    Yes, often the quality of evidence in trials of psychological interventions is poor. But my point is that that is also often the case in medical trials too. It's quite difficult to evaluate the effectiveness of many psychological interventions as, as you imply, you can't usually have a control group who is receiving a placebo. The best you could do
    perhaps is have say three groups of patients, matched for say age, sex, length and severity of illness. Group 1 would have CBT for one hour a week for say 12 weeks. Group 2 would have a supportive chat with a psychologist or other practitioner one hour a week for 12 weeks, and Group 3 would have nothing.

    All patients would be assessed at the start (time 1) and at the end of 12 weeks (time 2) and say 6 months after the end of the trial (time 3) by someone independent from the therapist on several criteria:

    Self-reports of symptoms and quality of life using an instrument with good evidence for reliability and validity. I haven't seen anything yet that is much good, so something would need to be developed (that would be quite an enterprise though).

    Actual activity perhaps using an actomer for a period of time.

    Immune system parameters like NK cell activity etc (CBT therapists often claim their treatment improves the immune system!)

    The main hypotheses tested would be that there are significant improvements between time 1 and time 2 on all measures for Group 1 and no change for Groups 2 and 3. These improvements continue to time 3.

    There are of course lots of potential weaknesses in such a study, for example:

    Group 1 may know they're having the 'treatment', so any improvement could be due to the placebo effect. But Group 2 might also think their supportive chat is treatment, so this may to some extent control for this. Any placebo effect is unlikely to last 12 months though.

    Unless all have the same therapist, some might be better than others.

    etc ,etc

    But there is no such thing as a perfect study.

    (Perhaps I should say that I think there is absolutely no place for psychological interventions (or for psychologists) in treating ME, except perhaps to support people in distress from having such a terrible illness. And I haven't seen any study that shows that CBT is an effective treatment for ME.)

    Jenny
     
  2. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    I'm sorry you seem to know so little about what psychologists do max.

    Very little pension I'm afraid. Unable to work at all for 10 years, much of the rest part-time, then became bedridden again so had to take early retirement.

    Jenny
     
  3. max

    max *****

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    Jenny - (Perhaps I should say that I think there is absolutely no place for psychological interventions (or for psychologists) in treating ME, except perhaps to support people in distress from having such a terrible illness. And I haven't seen any study that shows that CBT is an effective treatment for ME.)

    ....you say there is absolutely no place for psychological intervention in treating ME - bravo - alas, you follow immediately with "except perhaps to support people in distress from having such a terrible illness" -

    is it "absolutely no place" or not?

    If and when a treatment or more prefereable a cure is found by science, - who will then become the victims of your chosen career intervention techniques? How many will die?

    It is notable that you believe shrinks should have no involvement in ME, please use your influence over government to let them in on your informed opinion, they do not seem to understand this important point.
     
  4. max

    max *****

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    Yes Jenny - again you infer you know what my knowledge base is.

    One question - where do you think we would be without the intervention of psychiatry/psychology in the field of ME research?
     
  5. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Max - much of what you say is just ill-informed - that's why I say you seem to have little knowledge. Not sure why people will die when they engage in career counselling...

    I wish I did have some influence over the Dept of Health. The work I referred to was with the then Dept of Education and through various research projects we persuaded them to put more resources into career guidance in the UK.

    Of course psychiatry has had a disastrous effect on ME treatment and research. And some clinical psychologists too have made things worse. That doesn't mean that all psychology is dangerous or useless.
     
  6. wdb

    wdb Admin

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    I don't see there is necessarily any contradiction here, you can support the psychological impact of a distressing condition (of whatever nature that condition might be) without the implication that you are treating the condition itself or that the condition is in any part psychological.
     
  7. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    PS: just got to say, I tend to conflate psychology and psychiatry too (and I know that both sides hate this). It does seem like there's often not much distinction between psychological and psychiatric research, but the psychological CFS stuff does tend to be more respectful 'maybe we should assume these patient's beliefs are not totally barmy' type stuff than the psychiatric work... although I still don't think much of it is actually very useful.

    I think that CFS patients tend to see the very worst side of psychology and psychiatry... but there are plenty of quacks working in all fields. There is useful and interesting psychological and psychiatric work too.
     
  8. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Given how useless most career councillors seem to be, that could be even more evil than locking up CFS patients for refusing to get better!
     
  9. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Yes, there is still a lot of bad practice in career counselling esther but things did improve for a while when more money was put in to it in the 1990s. A lot of resources have now been withdrawn now though and government seem to think that all anyone needs is access to the internet.
     
  10. max

    max *****

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    Thanks for your reply and I accept you have your opinion - please accept my right to have my opinion whether or not it agrees with yours.

    Career guidance eh? Have you seen what's happening in that area? Another blazing success story for the field of psychology, mind readers and state sponsered manipulation.
     
  11. Battery Muncher

    Battery Muncher Senior Member

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    Your comments are getting quite aggressive and personal max. Please tone it down. Jenny has ME/CFS too, and there's just no need. You can make the same points without being so aggressive.
     
  12. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I agree. I've not seen anything which justifies the anger that got aimed at Jenny.
     
  13. max

    max *****

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    :balloons: peace :balloons:

    my apologies to Jenny and to any other psychologist or indeed psychiatrist that has been offended by my beliefs. If those that decide I am ill informed dismiss my observations after having to deal with this/these profession(s) for the last 15 years, then that is their perogative and their right.

    If my observational experience with these people had been more positive, then I would imagine I would not be so concerned that they have a direct impact on the health and mental well being of my partner today and in the forseeable future.

    I don't remember the psychologist that 'helped' my partner with her incorrect illness beliefs during CBT and GET being anywhere near to offer counselling during the nightmare 4 year relapse that followed this so called treatment. She didn't want to know. So who has the incorrect illness beliefs, the shrink or my partner?


    Is ME

    1. Psychiatric
    2 Psychological
    3. Psyco-sommatic
    4. Psycho-social

    I have heard all 4 from shrinks. Apparently the 4 are not the same - so which is it to be?



    Alas, I am human and as such should sit back and leave my well being in the hands of academia and those that are indoctrinated with theoretical bu@@s%*t, then all will be well.

    I see you took my posts to be aggressive - it wasn't meant to be - it was meant with anger. There's nothing wrong with a bit of anger - it keeps you on your toes.

    Looks like I'm heading for the cool-off bin for a few weeks - I should know better by now.
     

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