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Former BMJ editor Richard Smith's blog post on PACE

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
Every patient organisation rejects the model of illness behind CBT/GET for ME/CFS. If an entire patient community is set against a particular treatment model then it's not sustainable in the long-run. Even if a treatment looks good on paper (and CBT/GET don't look good, when portrayed honestly) patients still have to accept and want them.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
Actually PACE wasn't methodologically robust to start with - it was hopeless from the start. No reputable drug company would invest money in a trial of this design because they would know that for any 'physical' treatment a trial of this sort would be rejected out of hand by regulatory authorities. What I think will become clear from PACE is that adequate methodology for trials of psychological treatment simply does not exist at present. The fault actually lies mostly with the funding bodies and referees who should never have recommended that PACE was set in progress.
I'm sure you'd know better than me! But it certainly got worse as time went on.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Actually PACE wasn't methodologically robust to start with - it was hopeless from the start. No reputable drug company would invest money in a trial of this design because they would know that for any 'physical' treatment a trial of this sort would be rejected out of hand by regulatory authorities. What I think will become clear from PACE is that adequate methodology for trials of psychological treatment simply does not exist at present. The fault actually lies mostly with the funding bodies and referees who should never have recommended that PACE was set in progress.

I believe the original proposal included the use of actometers to measure activity but this was dropped after funding was agreed. So I think it was slightly less hopeless initially when funded than when they actually did the trial.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
It was me, as editor of InterAction, or Medical Editor, who awarded the BMJ the prize for the worst medical journal. I had good reason e.g paper with Dr Stouten which was a result of correspondence with Dr Smith. We wrote it all down.

Hmmm, one might think that the esteemed former editor of an esteemed journal would take care to avoid the dreaded foot-in-mouth disease. Fortunately the cure doesn't require CBT or GET...
 

Roy S

former DC ME/CFS lobbyist
Messages
1,376
Location
Illinois, USA
I should like to draw people's attention to the forgotten READ report, where an independent physician with no knowledge of ME was asked to examine the coverage of the illness in the British medical journals. She found significant bias, especially in the BMJ and even wrote a letter about it when the BMJ tried to rubbish her findings. This was published.
Hi Ellen,
Do you have a link for that report? I read something like that years ago online.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
I think even they would draw the line at saying that their members aren't really ill but just have false illness beliefs. Beyond that, I'm not sure how they would define CFS/ME.

I've never seen the PACE researchers say that patients aren't really ill. Is that a dodgy claim to make?
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
@EllenGB
would you consider writing something similar in the comments on the actual article?

would be nice for others outside the ME community to see the spin put on this sort of thing to accuse patients
I'm a little scared. After Dr Smith's comments about the whistleblower in papers like the Guardian and Independent.
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
Hi Ellen,
Do you have a link for that report? I read something like that years ago online.


I only have a paper copy myself. I think it was quite short. I've never seen it online but it was very good and very influential for a couple of years.
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
Actually PACE wasn't methodologically robust to start with - it was hopeless from the start. ... What I think will become clear from PACE is that adequate methodology for trials of psychological treatment simply does not exist at present. The fault actually lies mostly with the funding bodies and referees who should never have recommended that PACE was set in progress.

I am one of the referees who get to see such applications and I did and do my best. Same flaws are repeated. Got the right decision for one trial but not another. Son of PACE passed. There is some poor refereeing about but we're not all the same.

Son of PACE should come out quite soon. What we've learnt form PACE will be useful. Given similarity in design.

Interestingly, when I first challenged PACE, before it began, there were 'activists' who actually worked against me. It was long ago and they appear to have gone on to other things but at the time, they undermined me and others trying to challenge the nonsense. Without them, we have a better chance of providing sound and strong arguments.
 

Simon

Senior Member
Messages
3,789
Location
Monmouth, UK
Actually PACE wasn't methodologically robust to start with - it was hopeless from the start. ... What I think will become clear from PACE is that adequate methodology for trials of psychological treatment simply does not exist at present.
There's certainly a lot in this, but I think it''s overstated. Specifically, I think it the PACE trial was capable of showing CBT or GET worked - had they actually been effective - if it had been set up and in particular interpreted properly - with an example below of how that could look.

Self-reports not useless (but need to be interpreted with caution)
First off, fatigue is an important problem for many of us and it can currently only be measured subjectively by self-reports (there are alternatives for physical function which can be measure via actometers for activity levels or even the six minute walking test).

The problem with self-reports is that are prone to response bias (patients unconsciouly giving researchers the 'right' answer that things have improved), particularly in an unblinded trial without a meaningful control group, as was the case i PACE.

However, research and common sense indicates response bias is generally a small to modest effect (try this SF36 demo to see how you might tweak your answers to please - most answers are straightforward unless you lie, with just a few that could change eg from 'limited a little' to 'not limited at all: SF-36® Health Survey Scoring Demonstration - just answer Q3 on physical function, and click "score the survey" the bottom of the page

So if self-reports show more than a small-modest effect, they may well be showing something real

In the case of physical function, the PACE trial had objective measures (walking distance, and fitness). Crucially, these measures showed no (or minor change) while self-reports showed clinically significant gains. This should have been a red light to the researchers. Self-reports need to be compared with objective measures where possible to check for sings of response bias. PACE failed to do this

In fact, the nulll result at long-term follow-up (ie after the formal trial and therapy had finished, and participants were unlikely to be stil influenced by researcher expectations) are exactly what you'd expect if one-year gains were due to response-bias instead of real progress.

Had self-report gains been matched by objective measures for physical function, that would have been evidence for success, and evidence the self-reports for fatigue was showing something useful.


Objective measure could have helped show succes too
And of course, if CBT/GEt had really worked, we'd be seeing large gains in objective measures such as walking distance, fitness and employment hours/benefit status

What a successful PACE trial would have looked like (for CBT/GET vs SMC)
  • Large gains in self-reported fatigue and physical function
  • Large numbers of patients rating themselves very much better
  • Substantial gains in objective measures including fitness, physical function and employment/benefit rates
  • Means for patients in the successful therapy groups moving towards those for health populations, and the means for recovered patients would match those for healthy populations too
OK, so the trial data that's been published so far shows PACE CBT/GET did not work, but I don't think that is a meanginless or uninterpretable finding. In fact, I think PACE is good evidence that CBT/GET aren't much use in mecfs.

Certainly it's much harder to set up and interpret a study using self-reports in unblinded studies, which applies to much psychological research. But I don't think its by any means impossible, if researchers are aware of the pitfalls and interpret results accordingly.
 
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Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
'm sure you'd know better than me! But it certainly got worse as time went on.
No, I'm with you, @worldbackwards. It started off okay, in fact not too bad at all for a behavioural study. Even had some objective outcomes. Things went wrong along the way (as early as the stuff in the manuals promoting the treatments of interest and not the control ones).

@Jonathan Edwards, I don't agree that there are no good methods for conducting behavioural interventions. There are, but they need good control arms (a "dummy" therapy that's promoted as heavily as the one of interest), and they need a range of measures, not just self-report. Still, appreciate your support on the broader issues here!
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
Yep. And the CBT fanclub are now focusing more on views about activity and other aspects of cognition and personality as predisposing and perpetuating CFS. It's been referred to in various papers and now seen more detail. This is when I recall there are epidemics of ME. Can't see how personality predisposed them to get infected. My fault.

The good news is that I found my 12 page copy of the Read report on ME/PVFS and the media. If only I knew of an IT expert who could scan it and upload it. It's still so relevant. So good.