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For POTS or for digestion: Instead of Parasym Plus, increase acetylcholine at low cost & naturally

Discussion in 'Problems Standing: Orthostatic Intolerance; POTS' started by Lolinda, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    But we need to take carnitine at the same time as choline to make ACh, right?

    From the link
    "Taking large doses of choline in the form of phosphatidylcholine (lecithin) does not generally result in fishy body odor, because its metabolism results in little trimethylamine". It sounds like phosphatidylcholine isn't too bad
     
    keenly and Gondwanaland like this.
  2. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    ACh (from Choline) helps boost HCL(stomach acid) so taking it before meals should be helpful for this reason. Therefore, its probably better to take choline before dinner than before bed (unless there are other reasons for wanting ACh boosted later.
     
  3. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    according to the same link phosphatidylcholine isn't supposed to create to much TMA (as opposed to other choline sources?). I am a bit worried about TMA but will stick with phosphatidylcholine as it seems to be slightly helping my motility.
     
  4. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    From what I understand ACh is used thruout the nervous system. Some people might also need to increase ACh in the brain. Since my problems are mostly gut related I probably don't need to worry about increasing ACh in the brain. On the other hand, I get stimulated easily and might want to avoid Alpha GPC (which crosses the BBB) and might worsen my sleep (conjecture as some say it is a stimulant, who knows it might help some people sleep).

    Has anyone experimented with different forms of choline/acetyl groups and noted how they affect the gut (motility and digestion) and sleep?
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Not for POTS purposes I would have thought, because the latest studies indicate that POTS may be caused by autoantibodies affecting the receptors of the autonomic nervous system (ANS), and autoantibodies don't cross the blood-brain barrier very easily, so the problem in POTS would appear to be in the ANS, not the brain.
     
    sb4 likes this.
  6. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I think huperzine A is overstimulating me (it also increases dopamine which causes me not to sleep probably due to my MAOA inhibition). Huperzine is a very strong inhibitor from what I recall (and quite pricey). Bacopa also is a acetylcholinesterase(AChE) inhibitor which I plan on trying. Some people also might not need an AChe, just choline and ALCar.

    Has anyone experimented with different AChEs and found some more or less stimulating/useful?
     
  7. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    @skwag posted regarding toxicity of the commonly sold form of choline bitartrate here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-and-pots-may-respond-to-choline.40085/page-3
    It sounds like there is another kind of choline bitartrate and if you take choline bitartrate you might want to seek it out.
     
    Hip likes this.
  8. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    Our bodies are in a complex system. If our digestion is sluggish due to POTS damage we could end up with an overgrowth of Clostridium which could degrade ACh. I am not sure if that effects the brain but I could see some people with POTS potentially benefiting/being harmed from additionally increasing brain ACh (even if there is nothing wrong ACh wise it might help/hurt to raise it due to ACh's many uses thruout the whole body).

    I guess I am just suggesting if people aren't being successful with just peripheral changes (from phosphatidylcholine) it might merit a trial of AlphaGPC (for example) and vice versa.
     
  9. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I sometimes get chills too. I think parasympathetic lowers temp and sympathetic raises temp. I don't remember where I got that idea and all a quick google showed up was https://quizlet.com/159100496/mbb-block-iii-flash-cards/ which is hardly a reputable source. Anyone else knowledgeable here?
     
  10. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    huperzine has a really long half life 11+ hours and is very strong. It also increases dopamine (and perhaps other things). It is possible that the choline goes away quite quick but that huperzine A keeps on kicking. I'd be curious to see if you feel better without huperzine A (was this the cholinesterase inhibitor you took?) or with a different cholinesterase inhibitor (or Bacopa which I think has multiple ways of boosting ACh).

    That being said all of my theories explain the 7 hour mark. I have no idea why it would take 5 hours to feel the benefit. Does anything else happen in those 5 hours?
     
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  11. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    This won
    This won't fix your problem but demulcents like deglycerrized licorice can help the esophagus heal.

    HCL helps limit the biome to bacteria that survive in a narrow PH range (much like fermenting sauerkraut).
    The bacteria ferment some of our food (especially carbs hence the low carb suggestion [others also include fiber as a fermentable and suggest a low FODMAP type diet]) and increase the pressure on the sphincter eventually causing it to open.
    I believe this is the theory behind Chris's statement.
     
  12. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    Just a note on TMAO.

    I am not claiming any expertise, but with from reading about it I am not sure how concerned we should be. A lot of the discussion I have seen on it seems to be driven by a desire to prove that a vegetarian diet is superior to omnivorous ones and I suspect that politically charged debates based on thin evidence are probably best ignored.

    But some of the research suggests that our microbiota are responsible for much of the TMAO production. And in mice at least resveratrol can counteract this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4817264/.

    I also found a masters thesis http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6057&context=etd which showed no statistical difference between plasma TMAO in high (>600mg/d) and low (<100mg/df) flavanoid and proanthrocyanidin diets. This research suggests that about a third of plasma TMAO can be explained by intestinal microbes.
     
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  13. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    @Lolinda Have you looked into Delayed Release Phosphotidylcholine? Most phosphotidylcholine (PC) products are soy or oil based which get digested and absorbed before reaching the large bowel which is where its beneficial effect takes place but this delayed version is derived from eggs (egg lecithin)

    It's suggested as something to help with intestinal permeability and was in clinical trials in Germany for Ulcerative Colitis and something that Dr Myhill makes mention of (Endragil 500). I'm a bit confused on this one though as I saw somewhere that it is based on soy lechithin rather than egg lecithin used in the less potent product that has been on the market in Europe for some time.
    http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v109/n7/full/ajg2014104a.html
    http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Ulcerative_colitis_and_phosphatidylcholine_(PC)_in_the_gut

    Last time I looked, Endragil 500 still hadn't been released into the market place and the egg lecithin delayed version that was for sale for sale as a supplement in many European markets including the U.K. is now only available in Germany (PC Medicus Phosphatidylcholine by Medicus GmbH). It is only 30% PC strength as a coated granule whereas the current version in the clinical trials is 90% PC in capsules form but the earlier positivestudy results was from only this 30% PCconcentration anyway so there is proved efficacy even at this lesser concentration.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Medicus-Gm...5031&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Medicus GmbH

    One of the co-inventors of this has suggested that as PC products need to get to the bowel intact to be of benefit, a lecithin retention enema could be just as effective.
     
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  14. keenly

    keenly Senior Member

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    Dr D is doing great work. Most so called POTS doctors are not looking for any cause.
     

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