Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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For POTS or for digestion: Instead of Parasym Plus, increase acetylcholine at low cost & naturally

Discussion in 'Problems Standing: Orthostatic Intolerance; POTS' started by Lolinda, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Thanks for sharing this, I am glad that I persist on digging more of your information on choline. My mom and I will start trying this tomorrow. How long did it take you to be able to handle 400-500g meat? I will be happy if I can handle 37g hydrolyzed whey protein without generating gas. But I will dream about that much meat tonight. Good night and thanks again!
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think taking whey might have been one of the causes of the thickening of the soft tissues around my right Greater Trochanter shown in an MRI. I suspect that to be uric acid deposition since taking magnesium malate apparently solubilized it and the pain there is now much more tolerable - but all the solubilized uric acid has been a nightmare :ill:
     
  3. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    If your uric acid production is overly active, I see the point of avoid certain A.A, in this case, whey protein. That's why "one's meat can be other's poison". Have you done food sensitivity test? I am curious if you have connect some deficiency with your uric acid overproduction? I have strong reaction to 3 foods/chemicals: egg, sulfite, and gelatin. Egg is sulfur rich too and I wonder if my sulfite production is overactive too? I know sulfite sensitivity is found in some of those folks with upregulated CBS, but not all. Thanks for reminding me of the relation of B6 defficiency to gelatin sensitivity. Together with some other signs that I investigated, most importantly, my improvement with B6 supplementation, it becomes clear that I have been B6 deficient.

    By the way, have you done Zn supplementation or anybody else ? If so, can you give me some idea. If not, can you guide me where to find the most reliable infomation? My mom needs Zn badly. Thanks!
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I haven't had tests done.
    It seems that molybdenum is being diverted from its function in processing sulfites to the xanthine oxidase enzyme (increased uric acid production). I feel that manganese directs molybdenum to sulfite processing based on an experience I had with eating chickpeas. I don't know how chickpeas differ from soy, but I get a nice effect from chickpeas and feel horrible on soy (organic tofu). Soy is listed in the no-no gout lists, while chickpea isn't. So my anedocte is that after eating chickpeas for dinner, in the following morning I was chopping onions without tears!

    Eggs still have vit A on top of sulfites. See in the enclosed paper a chart for xanthine oxidase synthesis.

    Gelatin also usually contains sulfites... Gelatin/collagen make me very ill - feels like poison. Hydroxyproline is turned into oxalates endogenously if B6 is deficient or if its metabolism is impaired.
     

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  5. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Food Sources of Protein and Risk of Incident Gout in the Singapore Chinese Health Study.
     
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    There are a ton of studies showing that if legumes and grains are excluded from the diet, meat isn't a problem. It seems that trouble begins when protein from plant + animal sources are associated. Although vegetarians also get gout. The abundance of Molybdenum in grains, seeds, nuts and legumes favors endogenous purine production.
     
  7. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Can I trouble you to provide links to those studies? Because the studies I have seen, if anything, point in the other direction. Apart from the previously-linked study, here are the other studies with their extracted conclusions:

     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I appreciate the links you posted, and don't want to sound impolite, but I don't have the energy to post links of my research since one of my main problems is organizing the info. I just can't properly document my research. But I pretty much follow the low carb research. Important things I remember reading is:
    * fructose/glucose and uric acid share one transporter and the body prefers to dump fructose first 1, 2, 3 (@Lolinda )
    * milk homogenization creates a lot of xanthine oxidase in the end product so this would favor increased uric acid production in the consumer's body. I think this is why defatted dairy is recommended, and in fact consuming white cheese proved to me to be very relieving.
     
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  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Usually niacin puts the brakes on methyldonors
     
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  10. MissCB

    MissCB

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    This is probably old news to you guys but I want to share this link Dr. D sent me. I seem to have better luck cutting my Alpha GPC dosage in half and only taking every other day along with B12 (I read somewhere on NCBI it's required to assist in the breakdown of choline).

    As soon as I'm done breastfeeding I'm getting Parasym Plus. If it treats this it is worth every penny. I just have so much respect for Dr. D and how tirelessly she works to help us find answers. She's such a godsend!

    https://chronicdiseasedigest.org
     
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  11. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    She definitively works tirelessly and I learned much from her work and appreciate it. But Parasym Plus is dangerous, specifically the acetylcholinesterase-inhibitor in it. Just search a bit, and you will find people here on PR who desperately try to recover from lasting damage induced by acetylcholineesterase-inhibitors. And all the tons of furiously positive reviews on Parasym Plus on Amazon are from people who used the product for a very short term. Having checked them at the time of opening this thread, I did not find a single (!) of those dozens of reviews being written from a long term user. So there is no indication of longterm safety. Adding to that, I would disregard all the positive reviews on Amazon alltogether: you will read at the end of those reviews a statement like "I received this and that for my honest and free opinion". Sounds good and very correct, or? But as a researcher I tell you that this is not necessarily so good. In fact, many scientific studies use a method to publish falsely positive results: select people with a positive initial response and positive attitude (or they select themselves by volunteering). And then, surprise, a positive outcome will result ... So, who guarantees us that these surprsingly many people who received sthg from D for their free opinions were not selected? Amazon is swamped by them. This is marketing. Honest negative experiences about damage you get here on PR.
    (To say it very clearly, I absolutaly do not state anything that D did sthg wrong. Marketing is legit. But I am just so familiar how completely wrong impressions can arise even without any intentional falsification. Just imagine, there could be some self-selection effect, such that users with (chances for) positive outcomes are more likely to accept Dianas offer for compensation for some reason. And the best explanation for all the positive reviews could be: I hope and preassume that D did careful lab testing of her patients to select those for giving them Parasym Plus who really can and should take it)

    But even more important than these academic nuances:
    - if you need a reduced dosage of choline (as btw I did in the beginning) then god beware to potentiate the effect by acetylcholinesterase-inhibitors
    - before even thinking of any product containing acetylcholinesterase-inhibitors, get tested. A doctor can test your acetylcholineesterase levels. If they are deficient it could make sense to prep them up. But probably they will be fine. And then do not mess up what works in.you...!
    - check with a doc first. I mean, really do. This is toxic stuff: poisonous mushrooms and agricultural chemicals kill pests and people via acetylcholineesterase-inhibition!! (this will not happen with medical dosages, but still there is lasting damage in a very few peole. Dont be one of them.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  12. MissCB

    MissCB

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    Wow @Lolinda that is VERY good to know. Thank you!!!!

    I just don't get it, I have every symptom of a choline deficiency but can hardly even handle 150 mg of Alpha GPC every other day. I was so excited when reading her book thinking this would be the answer to my prayers.

    Were you able to develop a tolerance to choline and did it help you?

    I also found this study, again I'm sure it's old news to most of you but it makes me wonder if choline is in fact that root of my problems and I just need to figure out how to break it down and utilize it correctly.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4415014/
     
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  13. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    There is also the problem of vascular supersensitivity to acetylcholine in ME/CFS. So, whilst you may be deficient in choline, when you supplement it may make you feel a lot worse.

     
  14. MissCB

    MissCB

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    Thank you for sharing! So it sounds like Dr Driscoll is on the right path but just isn't quite there yet with the cure. I know I'm heterozygous for PEMT mutation. I'm curious how many people with POSTS/CFS have mutations in these pathways.

    I read another study somewhere linking B12 deficiency to difficulty properly using choline. I wonder if there's other co-factors we're missing.
     
  15. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    u.s.a.
    I don't tolerate supplements nor a lot of foods well anymore.......I have to go back and finish reading all of this thread, but am curious if people have any successes to report with trying to balance and supplement their deficit needs, ie if choline or anything else with foods....I am getting into making more smoothies and soups and experimenting what makes me feel better or worse
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  16. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    It sounds like your reaction to sulfites is way much stronger. I would not even know I am reactive to sulfites without the test. Then, I am curious what do take and do to the condition?
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I sincerely don't know... I think that what works for me is B6, molybdenum and manganese, but I don't supplement with these metals, just focus on food, and take a little B6 every now and then (less than 1 mg).
     
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  18. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    Thanks @MissCB so much for posting this study! I didnt have this one so far. What I really like is posting some information to the benefit of others and getting such a gem in return :) Why gem? I had many doctors search for some mitochondriopathies in me, but never nothing was found in spite of everyone being convinced that I had issues. This paper may explain it. Also the paper presents how researchers measure choline deficiency: they test choline status in the POTS patients by phosphatidylcholine, choline and betaine in blood. I feel it is very useful to not only supplement but always test as well as this is possible if one still has deficiencies or not. Unfortunately, no single lab for any of these in Europe.... All we have is a phospholipides test by Synlab. Does anyone know a lab testing for choline? In the USA, there is the lymphocyte proliferation test by Spectracell. I really like the smart idea of that test, and it has choline in the panel. Do you know that test? They do not simply test what swims around in the blood - which reflects in the case of many nutrients just the intake of the last few days (dont know how choline behaves in this regard?). Spectracell tests how much is actually available in the cells in a tricky way: they make your wbc multiply and then see when they run out of which nutrient. So they know about the actual sufficiency of those nutrients in cells. Scientifically, this is called "lymphocyte proliferation test". Not exactly cheap, but I learned a lot.

    A big sorry for my extremely belated reply (..... if even a simple thing like a heartfelt thank you comes so late, you can imagine how much is going on in my life currently...... :eek: :) )
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  19. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    @Lolinda Hi Linda, I just wanted to thank you and let you know my protein/fat digestion has improved greatly after taking lecithin as you recommended. The positive effect can be felt within days, following with constant improvement. Currently, I can easily digest 100-200g protein/fat without any complaint. Before I started it, 37g hydrolyzed whey protein was enough to upset my whole system.
     
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  20. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    I am glad it did good for you! Please let me know:
    • which lecithin product did you use? How much, how many times, oral/transdermal, diluted in what, let it sit on skin how long?
    • Did only your protein intake increase or your caloric intake too? Would you desire the latter or not?
    • Did you have any other changes, let that be nutrition habits, work efficiency, mood, psych, ... ? For example, I had a surprising effect that I call "happy stretching", see at the end of this post. It then got really strong since I have been smearing lecithin on my skin 4x prr day)

    I am not only curious:), but your answer may help to find out what causes the effects. I am currently researching this here.

    (I made often the experience that finding out how things work pays. Sometimes it helped me to find out about root causes of the issues in me, at other times it helped to simplify the treatment without losing effect, and, finally, it can be useful when needing to invent sthg new in case the effect wears off. Plenty of good reasons to meticulously write down which person does things in exactly which way and gets which effects...)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
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