1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Folinic +5MTFL Reaction

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by xks201, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes:
    187
    I took 5 methylfolate and folinic acid for several days. I had boundless energy. I basically felt completely cured of CFS. Come say day 4 now absolutely nothing. I might get a quick 5 minute rush after taking them but nothing. I was reading somewhere that taking high doses of folinic acid will make folinic (or 5methyl folate) plug into a part of the methylation cycle?

    In any event my fatigue block is definitely in this cycle. The folinic and methyl folate no longer do anything for me, even after adding in more methyl b12 and whatnot. What the hell happened?
     
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    423
    United States
    Folinic acid is only indirectly involved in methylation in that some of it is converted into methylfolate. Taking methylcobalamin, folinic acid, or methylfolate can affect CNS and neurotransmitters which would explain the rush. Methylation itself can also affect neurotransmitters, but if someone has a block in their methylation cycle and glutathione depletion then the results of methylation therapy will often happen gradually over a period of time. The majority of people with CFS who do methylation will even experience an initial worsening of symptoms.
     
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    423
    United States
    There are few things to consider before raising your dose which will impact how much B12 you will absorb.
    1. Most methylcobalamin brands are low quality. Enzymatic Therapy is the best quality. Solgar and AOR are better than most, but not as good as Enzymatic. Solgar makes a 5 mg methylcobalamin and AOR makes a 15 mg tablet so those might be an option if you don't feel like taking sublinguals all day. Also, some people find that they need to rotate brands of mb12, but that's after a couple weeks or months.
    2. If you hold the sublingual between your upper lip and gum it will dissolve slower and you'll increase the absorption of your B12.
    3. Potassium, vitamin C, and iron can block absorption of methylfolate so it would be good to take those away from your methylfolate.
    4. Some people do need higher doses, but like I said the benefits of methylation will happen gradually over time.
     
  4. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes:
    187
    Injections might be better?
     
  5. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes:
    187
    My serum b12 was elevated like twice the top of the ref range. Folic acid was nornal.
     
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,693
    Likes:
    12,548
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Have you a history of taking B12? If not then a high B12 might indicate you can't properly utilize it. Do you have high blood pressure? Have you tried adenosyl cobalamin? Thats next on my list, I need to get on it myself.
     
  7. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes:
    187
    What's the advantage of adenosyl cobalamin over methylcobalamin? I do have high blood pressure and I wasn't taking b12. I can almost guarantee my body can't use b12 based on my symptoms but methylcobalamin does nothing. My maij symptoms are like constant vertigo amd fatigue.
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,039
    Likes:
    1,711
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    High B12 test results without taking supplementation - B12 is in the blood, but not in the cells where it's needed. You have signs and symptoms of B12 deficiency. So definitely deficient.

    The form and type of B12 is very important. You need to bypass the stomach (extremely poor absorbtion going that route), so either do a sublingual B12 or an injection. Methylcobalamin is the most active form. Adenosylcobalamin is supposed to help with ATP. Hydroxycobalamin converts to both of those. Cyanocobalamin is synthetic and should be avoided.

    Like the other poster said, some sublinguals are better than others. I'm doing ok with liquid drops under the tongue - Douglas Labs methylcobalamin. Yasko makes liquid mega drops (1000mcg per drop) of all three active forms. I'm using her adenosylcobalamin.

    As far as 4 days and what the hell happened. You likely ran into "methyl trapping". You need both methylfolate and B12 to methylate, but if you take more methylfolate relative to B12 it will stop methylation. So with a B12 deficiency, you probably quickly ran through whatever little B12 stores you had and then ran out of steam.

    The general suggestion is to build up some B12 first, then add in methylfolate.
     
    Crux likes this.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    423
    United States
    xks201
    Which brand of methylcobalamin are you taking and how much? And how much folinic and methylfolate are you taking?
     
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    423
    United States
    Before I knew anything about methylation, I was taking 1500 mcg folic acid, 100 mcg of Quatrefolic methylfolate (supposedly more potent than normal 5-mthf), and only 200 mcg methylcobalamin (orally, not sublingually) but my symptoms of overmethylation continued for 5 weeks until I stopped the methylfolate. Maybe if I was taking 200 mcg of methylcobalamin sublingually it would be different, but I definitely didn't run out of steam even though the amount of B12 I was absorbing was probably very little compared to the folate. I know the folate dose was low too, but it was enough to cause overmethylation. I don't know much about SNPs so maybe it depends on SNPs?
     
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    950
    Likes:
    91
    High serum b12 indicates lack of transport per amy yasko. Maybe lack if lithium?

    Your folate experiment : check out Deplin....Rx'd for bipolar cos of some funky biochemical trick where it tricks the body into making more BH4. It's a whopping dose of folate!

    There is a connection between bh4 & lithium...think lithium up regulates the bh4 genes.


    Long way of saying maybe bh4 is an issue?

    Btw I am not recommending Deplin just trying to help you connect the dots. I think I have issues with the bh4 cycle but I haven't figured them out yet.
     
    roxie60 likes this.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    423
    United States
    You could try without folinic acid. Most people benefit from folinic acid, but a small percentage of people can't process it and it ends up inhibiting methylfolate. If that doesn't make a difference then I'd it back in. Folinic acid isn't really needed for methylation, but it has other benefits. There's more information about folinic acid intolerance here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-intolerance-request-for-genetic-data.19168/
    This is from Rich about folinic acid
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page