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Folic acid in bread 'could be a health timebomb'

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by caledonia, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I've seen maybe only two people on here who didn't have an MTHFR SNP. In those cases, they had mercury issues. Mercury and lead can both screw up MTHFR in the absence of a mutation, producing an effect similar to having MTHFR. They then had all the other SNPs that we commonly see on here.

    Most of the rest of us have both MTHFR and mercury issues.

    You also have to look at environmental factors, not just SNPs alone, as the environmental factors will also effect methylation - "folic acid" being another example...
     
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  2. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Asklipia, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. I read once about a president of a major medical school giving a commencement address in which he stated that probably half of what they learned in medical school would eventually be proven to be wrong within 5 years. He added that unfortunately, he didn't know what half it was.

    I recently ran across a video by a doctor who believes scurvy is far more prevalent than many think. I haven't watched it all, but he believes infections of all kind create large amounts of free radicals and oxidative stress, depleting our bodies of anti-oxidants, including Vitamin C. This in turn is leading to cases of scurvy or sub-clinical scurvy. Supplementing with Vitamin C would most likely lead to alleviation of scurvy symptoms, but it seems quite possible supplementation with other anti-oxidants might do the same.

    Is it possible scurvy isn't a Vitamin C deficiency disease per se, but perhaps more accurately an anti-oxidant deficiency disease? I don't have the background nor the energy to research this further, but it was a wake-up call for me to supplement with more anti-oxidants. I'm currently focusing on liposomal Vitamin C, which apparently can concentrate in the liver much better than regular Vitamin C. But I'm just in the initial stages of researching this. Much more to learn! :)

    Best, Wayne
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
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  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Wayne,

    This in turn is leading to cases of scurvy or sub-clinical scurvy. Supplementing with Vitamin C would most likely lead to alleviation of scurvy symptoms


    I would agree that there is a great deal of sub-clinical scurvy. I worked with dentists and dental consultants (DDS or DMD), with benefit plans for more than 30 years. Subclinical scurvy I believe is far more common than generally recognized. In the study Rich worked with on the SMP one of the included symptoms was a lot of bloody noses. That is also on the list of common symptoms of people with FMS/CFS/ME. Because of the ready response of this symptom to vitamin C, for me it was total cessation, as in not another bloody nose in 43 years after just about weekly bloody noses from prior to age 2. A glass of orange juice a day didn't change anything. However, 2000mg a day of vitamin c and no more bloody nose for me since. Also, from recurrent UTIs for years to not another one since starting vit C. Also I went from streps 6 times a year to none until I had kids bringing it home. Following Linus Pauling's advice I increased vitamin C until I stopped getting sick, with infectious diseases. I took 16 grams a day for decades. Now with active b12 and folates I'm down to 6 grams a day. And vitamin C is essential for building cells. It forms collagen, without which cells don't get made. For the fail point to be at the collagen forming stage, the new cell has already participated in the DNA methylation of MeCbl/l-methylfolate. The symptoms are completely different.

    In the British sailing ships they went with limes as a long lasting source of vitamin C. The Germans went with sauerkraut. The Japanese went with another fermented item for vitamin C. Limes alone could cure scurvy, very rapidly. If this were not so widely replicated in every sea faring nation and saving lots of lives by adding citrus fruits or other fresh foods with vitamin C. Now it is likely that while they got rid of clinical scurvy they didn't have an optimum amount of vitamin C or anything else. Poly-deficiency was common throughout life.

    A person with scurvy reacts as strongly and quickly to Vitamin C as those deficient in MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and LCF respond to those nutrients. There really is no doubt. Nothing that doesn't have vit C in it produces an "a scorbic" effect. Vitamin C does so starting in hours.

    The thing is that if a person is starved for b12 and/or folate, they will have those symptoms manifesting because they happen before vit C deficiency can demonstrate it's presence. Then if folate and b12 are taken, those symptoms start to repair but stops as soon as they run out of C and stop a different place. It can get very paradoxical, just like with methyltrap. Having so little MeCbl triggers methyltrap which has sever folate deficiency. Then when one takes enough MeCbl to get out of methyltrap, one gets B12 deficiency symptoms. Very paradoxical. As these things are activated in layers there can be layers broken for different reasons so symptoms can get mixed.

    Since we don't go around intentionally starving people to the edge of death it is unlikely that a definitive experiment could be conducted. However, millions of people being cured of scurvy, promptly, by the addition of fresh fruits, it's the place I would put my bet down on. As any number of dentists have told me, if they can get people taking vitamin C their oral health is better even though they have no clinical scurvy symptoms. Optimum is not the same as deficiency prevention.

    Scurvy has everything to do with lack of collagen production in a growing cell and nothing to do with antioxidant effects. Those are not part of the scurvy definition. There may be other things from lack of antioxidant activity of Vit C, but they are not named scurvy and they don't have those symptoms.
     
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  4. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Freddd, I appreciate the lengthy reply. I'm interested in what kind of Vitamin C you took/take. I'm looking at significantly increasing my intake using liposomal C. My ND advised me not to take more than 3-5 g/day of the liposomal C after I told him I was considering doing the Salt / C protocol and building up to 15 g each (the anti-Lyme protocol at lymephotos.com). So I plan to learn how to make my own liposomal C, and have read the best kind to use is just plain old (and cheap) ascorbic acid. Was wondering what kind you use(d) and if you had any recommendations. --- Thanks.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Wayne, I'm just interjecting here re Vitamin C. A few months ago I began taking many of my supps in footbaths, 2/day. I'm now able to use the cheapest form of C, ascorbic acid, without worrying about my gut. This would save you the effort of making a transdermal prep. Mostly I use C to mediate histamine responses, along w/ Calcium (also cheapest, Ca carbonate, in footbath). Some days I need (self-testing) only 1 tsp AM/ 2 tsp PM. When there's a lot going on, I can use 2 Tablespoons. It's certainly absorbing, my histamine response has never been so controlled. I recently received results from hair analysis, showing no aberrant calcium levels. So this foot soaking method seems to be a big winner for me. I put all my aminos, mg oil, K+...anything I can easily add. cheers, ahmo
     
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  6. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Thanks ahmo, and congratulations on your success! (Don't you ever wonder why they're too few and far between? :)) I'll definitely be keeping the footbaths in mind. --- There's a number of things to like about the Liposomal C, including the fact that it's apparently not a gut issue like most other forms of C. Not only does the absorption rate into the blood and cells reach 90%+, but it's also able to be transported deep into the liver and become concentrated there because of the lecithin coating (I'm big into liver/gb cleansing these days).

    It also seems like a good thing to have around in case of emergencies, like snake bites, tetanus, opportunistic infections that are in hospitals these days, etc. --- Thanks for mentioning the histamine control. It's been on my mind to explore that whole area more, and have barely thought of how taking in more Vit. C will likely help that. But it's nice to be reminded that it will!
     
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Yes, C + Ca both help histamine, one binds, the other helps eliminate. and Yes, grateful for all successes! I've watched the Hu vid, I like it. Haven't gotten into a routine with it, but it seems a winner. thanks.:angel:
     
  8. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    @ahmo and @Wayne, would you both mind posting particulars about your methods? How-to, dosing etc? THanks!
     
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi leela. My progress out of downward spiralling disaster began with removing dairy and gluten. I started the GAPS diet, 2 years ago end of January. Not only gluten and dairy free, but no starches until gut healing. I've just now successfully added 1 Tbl soaked buckwheat. Hi fat, bone broth, small amounts of meats, fresh vegetable juice, and for me, my only cooked veggie, zucchini. 6 months into the diet I uncovered sulfur and histamine intolerances, which has left me with a very minimal, but very satisfying, diet.

    My next success was adding inMTHFR/pyroluria supps...big overlap here. Within a week of adding in those minerals plus TMG (a methyl-donor) my inner river of negativity stopped. I could suddenly approach the ongoing research needed for recovery as an interesting challenge, instead of an overwhelming burden. I've now been fully on Freddd's Protocol for 9 months. I've been very cautious in adding things, probably too cautious, I now feel. I experienced a shift as I added in each of the 4 Deadlock Quartet. Just prior to this, I'd once again tried hydroxyB12 and folinic as both Rich VanK and Amy Yasko suggest. They again, as in my attempts over the past 3-4 years, did nothing. And I searched for days trying to nail down which carnitine Fred was suggesting, and due to my inability to find it, tried ALCAR, which I already had on hand, as well as carnitine bitartrate or something. When I finally added my first dose of L-Carnitine Fumarate, LCF, I felt an almost immediate 'brightening' of my whole system. Many people use this term. Each of the other elements has added a heightened feeling of well-being. )LCF, Methyl B12, Adeno B12, Methyl Folate) Now I'm using my tendency toward skin outbreaks to monitor my folate deficiency, am slowly increasing my dose by 1-200 mcg every day, or every other day.

    I started using footbaths from GAPS advice re releasing toxins. When I began needing a lot of extra K+ due to methylation start-up, I started adding my K+ to the footbaths, so I didn't have to take so much by mouth. This proved so successful, that I've added all my powdered supps to footbath: aminos, C, Ca,...I use 2 baths. First one with clay and charcoal for pulling out toxins, the second to clean up from the first (!), with bicarb, powdered supps, magnesium oil. For a time I used special clays to detox metals, now plain bentonite.

    Natasha Campbell-McBride, developer of GAPS, uses juicing for detoxification. I also add chlorella to my juice to help bind and eliminate bacteria. I use a few things for metal/bacteria detox, but have kept it pretty gentle, avoiding cilantro, for example, and other strong things. I've used a few courses of metal magnet products. Oregano oil on the soles of my feet. Also clove oil and lemongrass oil on feet to combat biofilm. Unfortunately most of my supps have mag stearate, which adds to biofilm, making bacterial elimination harder.

    Hope this helps. Happy New Year, ahmo
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
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  10. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    This is immensely helpful, @ahmo. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it up.
     
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  11. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Thanks much ahmo for your extensive write-up. I started taking some Armour thyroid in October, and feel it's been helpful for my cognition, but still haven't reached the point where I can say my research is an interesting challenge. Not quite the overwhelming burden it used to be, but closer to burden than challenge.

    Perhaps if I can get more towards research being an interesting challenge, I can begin to tackle Freddd's protocol. I've tried reading many of his posts on many different occasions, but just don't have the stamina to get my brain into it. I only recently discovered (I'm not exactly sure about this) that he believes folic acid supplementation has created (or helped create) this "man-made" disease called CFS. --- Perhaps if he could write like we're all 6-year olds... :rolleyes: (From the move "Philadelphia" with Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington).

    Congratulations on all your improvements! :thumbsup: --- AND your ability to research. They often go hand in hand.

    Best, Wayne
     
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  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Wayne. What was most remarkable about my change of perspective is that it came after 5 days on the new supps. Just like that! I think now it was due to better methylation just from the TMG....Yes, I'm very interested in this idea that folic acid might have created an epidemic of B12/folate deficiency disorders. It explains a lot about the "new" chronic illnesses.

    Here's something nice for you over-worked brain. A great FAQ page Eric, howirecovered, created largely from Freddd's info. Much easier way to get a grasp on this complex material. Cheers and Happy New Year to you. ahmo

    http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/
     
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  13. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Thank you, thank you, thank you! :thumbsup:
     
  14. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member

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    @ahmo
    I too have found your post (#29) very helpful.
    After a failed attempt at trying the methyl protocol 2 years ago I am again trying to better understand how to proceed and start again.
    I do also have one question if you don't mind could you tell me more about the clay and charcoal foot bath. What product and how much, how often? I'd also be interested to know, on looking back at how you did things would you have done this charcoal/clay thing first?
    Thanks for the info you've already shared.
     
  15. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    That's really great info @Asklipia, but I believe this only applies to industrial canned food, and not home pressure cookers.

    A home pressure cooker in the US is only rated to a maximum 15 psi relative to your current barometric pressure. So, at sea level, we are talking about an absolute pressure of 29 psi in the pressure cooker, which is about 0.2 MPa (Megapascals).

    Of course, you are right about canned/vacuum packed food (known as "HPP" in the industry), which is put under much higher pressure.
    To give you an idea of what kind of high pressure we are talking about...

    100 MPa = 14,503 psi
    800 MPa = 116,030 psi

    That's a ridiculous amount of pressure. Home pressure cookers (with only 29 psi of absolute pressure) are nowhere near that kind of pressure.

    So, here's what the research says about folate when it's exposed to the extreme "HPP" high pressure in the canning industry:
    But let's not confuse this with a home pressure cooker. A home pressure cooker can only obtain 15 psi above your current atmospheric pressure. That's the equivalent of 0.2 MPa. According to that study, the degradation of folate would not happen until 200 MPa (or 29,007 psi).

    In fact, it appears that home pressure cookers are very good at preserving folate, as this study points out.
    According to that study, you'll retain more folate by using a pressure cooker than by boiling (it's because you use less water with a pressure cooker). A home pressure cooker is nothing like those industrial canners—not even in the same universe!
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
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  16. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    I've had the same exact theory for some time now.

    I would also like to add that bromine is another toxic ingredient that is added to bread. Apparently it can cause problems with the pineal gland.

    For years, I've had issues with a delayed phase sleep disorder and I rarely remembered my dreams. I finally got some relief through supplementing with low dose (300mcg) of liquid melatonin. This has lead me to wonder if the pineal gland is something we should also be focusing on. I have a feeling that it's another organ that has fallen victim to some of the toxins that we can't seem to excrete properly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
  17. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    Interesting. VERY interesting. I gotten a TON of cherry angiomas which when I asked a dermatologist about it... they said - those are just SUPER common in caucasians in their middle age and that they are NOTHING to worry about.

    FWIW - I never get restful sleep for the last several years. AND while I've had a sleep study and asked questions about my sleep phases - they were focused on uncovering sleep apnea and in the absence of apnea - told me I slept well. (sigh). While I used to remember dreams quite frequently - since I started having trouble waking up exhausted - that I no longer remember any dreams. (so the symptoms do seem to fit)

    BUT, I found a link with bromine toxicity and the frequency of cherry angiomas... http://amanonmedicine.com/cherry-angiomas-bromine-iodine/

    I haven't done any further research or follow up on it, but am curious if you've also noticed the little red dots and fi so, has there been a change. It could totally be that bromine buildup impacts more than one thing and there might not be a link... but as I keep learning more about this - it makes me wonder if it's another piece of the puzzle that I need to treat for better long, term health.
     
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  18. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    You know, I never really paid any attention to it but now that you asked, I just went to the bathroom to look in the mirror and I do seem to have quite a few cherry angiomas on my chest.

    Since I've never paid attention to them before, I can't say if they are diminishing.

    I doubt that melatonin would do that anyway. I just see supplementing with it as a band-aid that compensates for another undetermined condition. I'm assuming the root cause of melatonin deficiency is most likely a toxic overload/calcification of the pineal gland. I'm stilling trying to research what that condition is all about. Most people seem to think it revolves around fluoride and bromine poisoning.
     
  19. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Check out a comment that I found, from the author of the article that you linked to...
    That EXACTLY describes my condition before supplementing with low dose melatonin.

    I'm more and more convinced that issues with the pineal gland is behind the sleep problems that some individuals experienced. He discusses supplementing with iodine, which many people believe detoxes the pineal gland of fluoride, bromide, chlorine and other halogens. This is what I've been reading up on, but much of the information that I've found so far seems steeped in pseudo science and I'm cautious about possibly wasting time and money with more potentially useless protocols.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    South America

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