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Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Ugghh sounds bad. Hang in there hey. Interestingly I can't take benzo type sleeping drugs like temazepam as I get sleep apnea. Which is scary enough when you aren't doped out lol.
  2. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Some members of this site have claimed to have gotten relief from CFS symptoms by using antacids...

    Tagamet (cimetidine) for CFIDS (worked for me)
    So, on a hunch I went searching for another possible explanation as to why antacids might provide some people with relief. Not sure if it's really relevant but it might be worth looking into...

    Nutrient Depletions Caused By Antacids

    I was also thinking that maybe gluten is not so much a problem, for some people, as is the folic acid that is added to wheat products.
  3. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Yikes. Several people I know specifically can't tolerate wheat in the US, but are fine eating it elsewhere.
    Is supplementing flour with folic acid unique to the US ?

    It's either the folic acid, or the US uses an strain of dwarf wheat which has especially bad gluten proteins.
  4. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Numerous countries do it but I don't think that all of them do. Plus they have different dosages that they employ.
  5. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Ehh I cant tolerate gluten anywhere.. Not in minute amounts, nothing to do with folate for me.
  6. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    I think the politically correct term is "little person". Or maybe "little wheat".
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    A couple of things more on folic acid. I have talked to some company prodeuctr development people. The folic acid in b-compelx is being taken care of, I don't know how fast, but pretty soon. They were aware of some of the problems and we will have a solution. The question is when.

    Now as far as timing goes. Since a week ago I have removed the Metafolin from the times I take folic acid figuriong the folic acid was blocking it. Appraently that works both ways as I ended up with fast onset of folate deficiency despite taking 8800mcg of Metafolin at other times. So it looks like this now. At the absorbtion level, folic acid, folinic acid and mrhtylfolate all compete, so reducing Metafolin increases folic acid absorption. Then the folic acid competes for transport and the symptoms got far worse very rapidly. So yesterday I switched back to Metafolin with the folic acid and at other times and things are improving today. I have been through this so often now I recognize first or second day changes in both directions. Right now I am working out an optimal folic acid blocking timing. For now, my experience suggests taking Metafolin with anything with folic acid in it to minimize absorption and then at several other times per day. I know that taking 2400mcg Metafolin with 400 mcg of folic acid allows the Metafolin to predominate. Taking the folic acid without the metafolin allows it to block the Metafolin 24 hrs/day. Folinic acid was even worse. As I have said previously, timing is important for best effects. I hope this is all different pretty soon. At least we do have a way to make it effective despite folic acid but not with folinic acid.
  8. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks for this Fred.

    Question: where does that leave Jarrow B-Right? Since it has folic acid, should it be discontinued or taken in conjunction with Metafolin? Just got a full bottle in the mail yesterday, so I'm hoping I can use it.
  9. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Ok, so that means if I take the dibencozide with 200mcg of folic acid in it, theoretically I could block the folic acid with 1600 mcg of metafolin taken at that time. And it is good to take it at other times I gather. Good to know you are finding that the metafolin can block the folic acid as well as the other way around.

    Would be great I guess if country life made a formulation without folic acid.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,

    There are a fair number of folks who are going to try Source Naturals Dibencozide. Here is hoping that it absobs well and is effective. I will A-B it for alternating months and see.
  11. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Rich what is the difference in folic acid, folinic acid and leucovorin? As part of my mitochondrial testing with Dr Shoffner he found very low levels of 5-methyltetrahydrofolate in my CSF, and I take 25mg of leucovorin three times a day. Could this take the place of metafolin? Should I stop the leucovorin while I try the methylation?
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, toddm1960.

    Folic acid is the oxidized form of folate. It is not found in natural food sources, but in the U.S. and some other countries it is added by law to food grains in order to lower the incidence of neural tube birth defects, such as spina bifida. Folic acid is also the most common commercially sold form of folate. It has a long shelf life, because it is already oxidized. In order for the body to use it, it must be chemically reduced to tetrahydrofolate. This is done mostly in the liver, using the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR) to catalyze two sequential reactions.
    There is a factor of five range in the rate of the first reaction among different people owing to genetic differences, and some people are not able to use folic acid very well for this reason. There is some evidence that folic acid, if it builds up in the blood stream, can inhibit the natural killer cells, and thus may influence the risk of cancer, but this issue is still unresolved.

    Folinic acid and leucovorin are the same substance, 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate. Folinic acid occurs naturally in the body and in natural food sources. It is one of the chemically reduced forms of folate. The body does not use it directly as a coenzyme, but converts it to other folate coenzyme forms. The conversion of folinic acid to 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate requires three sequential reactions. If there are downregulating genetic polymorphisms in one or more of the enzymes that catalyze these reactions, it may be difficult to make this conversion.

    I cannot advise you about whether it would be better for you to take Metafolin than leucovorin, but you can consider the biochemistry described above together with your physician, and make your own decision.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  13. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Folinic acid is racemic.

    Hi Freddd,

    I don't know if you already know this but Folinic Acid is a racemic product, and the inactive isomer tends to block the active isomer. This might be the reason for your bad reactions to it. The same goes for Leucovorin, but Levoleucovorin is only the active isomer.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7483142
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Toddm,

    Taking leucovorin could be blocking methylfolate if you are like some of us here and cause or maintain deficiency symptoms and block methylation. 25mg 3 times a day would completely shut down my Metafolin and put me into severe deficiency. That is why it is PARADOXICAL folate deficiency. It is your consideration what to do. Fortunately the folinic acid will leave your system withn a day or so and then you could try a couple of weeks on Metafolin. The difference would be very obvious within a few days if the folinic acid is having a paradoxical effect on you. Good luck.
  15. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Also, D-Folinic Acid Accumulates in plasma.

    This review indicates a subtle difference between the active isomer and the racemic form. It doesn't rise to statistical significance though.

  16. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Thank you for your help, it sounds like the best path is to follow the methylation formula as is and take a break from the leucovorin. Do you know of any others with mitochondrial dysfunction that have been helped trying this?
  17. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Given that B-right has Folic acid in it, is there any consensus on a viable alternative? I've seen a few mentioned here and there on the forum, has any one tried and tested a good one?

    Kind regards
    SJB944
  18. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  20. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Your plan has always included methylfolate, hasn't it? Or do you mean your new approach to taking it?

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