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Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Shellbell -- I'm hope we're on to something too. When I took the other methylation supplements, I realized I wasn't taking these specific ones that Freddd or Kurt are taking, and was indeed taking "too much" folic and folinic acids.

    Which type or brand of folate are you taking? Both Kurt and Freddd suggest that Metafolin is the critical form.

    Also, I don't know if you noticed Kurt's comment, but he had kind of the same trouble with some of the other b vitamins -- but said the magnesium chloride made a big difference when it came to tolerating them. I think that's especially true for b6, which can be trouble for some with sulfation issues, but only if there isn't sufficient magnesium.

    Hopefully Kurt, Freddd or others with more smarts than I will comment too. :)
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    Besides mb12,adb12, Metafolin, the only reacvtion of any kind I had to any other b vitamins was to the b-complex itself. If I only take it once a day herart palpitations return big time and I have a 24 hour pain cycle with pain worst at 24 hours after last dose. I've never tried magnesium chloride but have taken magnesium in various forms for decades.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    One thing I can say that has changed is the ability to take supplements now. My sensitivities to supplements I have tried in the past are more tolerable now.


    That's good. The hypersensitivity is fading. That is also one of those signposts.

    I am taking 4.5mg of mb12 and am up to 1/4 tab x 3 of folate a day now

    Keep on trucking. It sounds like you are on the right path.

    But I am ok tonight and my nervous system is settling down for the time being. Like Fred, I will take the adb12 once a week or get one without the folic acid.

    nervous system settling down is also a signpost. Good to here. Spreading the metafolin into multiple doses will help settle it down instead of yoyo.

    It sounds like things are starting to smooth out some. Good.
  4. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I'm taking 1/4 of a 1mg. jarrow mb12 and getting significant anxiety effects - will probably have to stop, or reduce further to 1/8. The folinic acid seems to mitigate that somewhat, while I have similarly bad reactions to 5-mthf. I might need to add some more folinic to tolerate the mb12. How does that fit this theory? It appears to be paradoxical or contradictory. thanks
  5. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Danny, I am taking the folate Fred recommends. Backing off of the adb12 was a good move. I am calmer today and feel like I will be able to leave my bedroom and be apart of the day around my house with family. I even think I will be able to go grocery shopping today. This is a huge difference over the last few days. Thanks for the reminder on the magnesium. Right now I am taking citrate and glycinate. The glycinate is suppose to help calm the nervous system. I am also looking into the malate form. This is suppose to be good for increasing energy and reducing body pain. I am looking into that more for the energy part.

    Fred, thank you for your support. Your email yesterday really encouraged me to hang tough! I will let you know how things go. I really think at this point, increasing my mb12 and folate first is the way for me to proceed. I am already on two full caps of B-Right a day.

    Mr.Kite, I wanted to let you know that my anxiety has been through the roof at times since starting, but consistantly there at some level. I have been at this for a little over 3 weeks. But, I have also had small periods of time where if lifts and I actually feel relaxed, which I haven't felt since this illness began. When I first started, I was able to go all the way to 3mg of mb12 a day within a pretty short period of time without having feelings of wanting to jump off a bridge. However, when I increased to 4.5 mg, I thought I was going to lose it, so I backed down to 3 mg for a couple of days. Now I am taking the 4.5mg and doing ok. I will stay here for a couple more days before increasing my dosage again. Just hang in there. We will do this together. It hasn't been easy by any means, but I really think it is worth doing!!

    Shellbell
  6. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Albion Labs is supposed to produce the best chelated minerals, covered here. Jigsaw Health and Solgar make a really good magnesium with their malate.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,

    If folinic acid blocks folate for you it also prevents mb12 from being utilized as well. For instance it requires both folate and mb12 for DNA transactions.
  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I see. So mb12 and 5-mthf cause symptoms (apparently related to increased dopamine), and folinic acid reduces the sx because it's antagonizing mb12 and methylfolate. So that would appear to indicate COMT +/+, even though there is an apparent b12 deficiency (though probably 'artificially' induced by the omeprazole). Meaning that I actually probably need folinic, at least once the b12 stores are (I hope) rebounded back to normal.

    Gets very complicated very fast. Now perhaps you see why the methylation panel seems like such a good idea - the genomic version probably even moreso. Without any clear objective markers, a lot of it appears to be reduced to not much more than pure guesswork.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thank you for the explanation. Of course one thing to remember is that everything used under lip or tongue that isn't absorbed on the spot ends up in the digestive system any way. Cognitive dissonance can be difficult and I certainly go around inspiring it. Again, thank you for engaging.

    Now one more clue.

    Remember, I inject 30mg of mb12 daily and absorb probably another 5mg or so from sublingual tablets so I have a lot of cobalamin coloring available.



    • The very first time I took Metafolin I noted the disappearance of cobalamin coloration in my urine. That continues to this day if other things don't interfere.
    • Glutathione causes methylfolate and b12 deficiency symptoms. Lots more cobalamin is visible in the urine around the clock.
    • The Country Life adb12 caused a disproportionate to dose of adb12 amount of cobalamin in the urine. When taken in 3 doses daily and two other doses of folic acid in B-Right the cobalamin color was visible at all times except first few hours of the morning.
    • Folinic acid taken once a day caused a smaller degree of cobalamin coloration around the clock with increases for 3 hours, 1 hour following B-Right dose (folic acid) twice a day.
    • B-Right (folic acid) twice a day causes very red urine for 3 hours 1 hour following dose twice a day.
    • Folinic acid, glutathione and folic acid cause feces to be more yellow when more cobalamin is being excreted by the kidneys most of or all of the day than when it is not.
    • Next step is to get a b-complex without folic acid and see what happens along with the dibencozide without folic acid and go folic acid free. The hypothesis is that I may be able to reduce mb12 dose since serum level will go higher and stay higher so that penetration of CSF/CNS may happen longer and easier.

    So now the question, why does blocking methylfolate any of several ways result in greater and/or faster kidney excretion of cobalamin? What are the possible mechanisms/pathways?

    Maybe an alternative phrasing could be why does methylfolate when not blocked reduce kidney excretion of cobalamin?

    Might folic acid be the actual underlying cause of chronic b12 deficiency in so many people in the USA?
  10. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Mind blowing.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,


    at least once the b12 stores are (I hope) rebounded back to normal.

    There are no b12 stores. That is a myth. The b12 in the body is in the mitochondria and is working b12, not storage. As the cells die the b12 leaks out of the mitochondria and can be repurposed at least until the average level in the mitochondria descends too far. The so-called "storage" in the liver is an excretion buffer and does not feed directly back into the body. It is only storage if a sewage treatment facility is considered a water reservoir. Further there is no actual evidence that the entero hepatic cobalamin recirculation loop ever gets reestablished once it fails, just guesses and unfounded assumptions repeated over and over thereby attaining the gloss of holy writ. I know of nobody taking active m12 who isn't 3 days of zero dose away from the startup of b12 deficiency symptoms no matter how much or how long they have been taking it. Now that might be a function of folinic and folic acid. Right now I can't give an answer to that.

    Meaning that I actually probably need folinic

    It appears to mean that if folinic acid blocks the methylfolate for you that you will have permanent folate and b12 deficiency as long as you take folinic acid. Again, we can't know this for sure yet, but it sure is beginning to look that way.
  12. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I merely meant the measured levels, not trying to suggest it was stored anywhere. I should have stated that more precisely, I guess. Thanks for the amplification of that point.

    Regarding your urinary observations, are you now suggesting that ab12 also probably reduces cobalamin absorption, or utilization, or whatever you are hypothesizing happens in these relationships?

    Btw, where are you getting the mb12 injections, if you don't mind me asking? Do you require an overseas source, or is it available through naturopaths or similar practitioners in the US? Primary care here says they just use hydroxy and 'we've never heard of using methyl b12 in injections - what did you call it? methyl b12?' etc. :rolleyes:
  13. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Fred, quick question? In planning my next step, should I increase the mb12 and folate at the same time? I am trying to work my way up to the top as fast as tolerable?

    Thanks,
    Shelly
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,

    Regarding your urinary observations, are you now suggesting that ab12 also probably reduces cobalamin absorption, or utilization, or whatever you are hypothesizing happens in these relationships?

    No. The Country Life Dibencozide also contains 200mcg of folic acid which appears to be able to fully account for the cobalamin excretion. So the test of concept then is to switch to a brand, hopefully effective, that contains no folic acid. As I just received my most recent order yesterday, I'm probably at least a week or two away from making another order. I will do an absorption test on it in the usual fashion once I am at equilibrium with the excretion without folic acid so I can see whether it absorbs at the same rate as the others I have so tested. I also need to find a suitable b-complex without folic acid and am accepting whatever suggestions people might come up with.

    Btw, where are you getting the mb12 injections, if you don't mind me asking? Do you require an overseas source, or is it available through naturopaths or similar practitioners in the US? Primary care here says they just use hydroxy and 'we've never heard of using methyl b12 in injections - what did you call it? methyl b12?'

    I am prescribed the mb12 injections by my internist. It is available at compounding pharmacies (ones that mix customized medications etc) in the USA. The quality can be very spotty for two reasons, exposure to light while mixing or injecting and because of natural variations in the actual mb12 itself depending upon the organism making it or other considerations of production. I use mb12, methylb12, methylcobalamin interchangably, the shorter the better. Mecbl is also common. There are probably a dozen variations that have to be searched for to find journal articles from a wide variety of countries. Any one way it is spelled will miss a lot of other variations.

    Unless the shear large amount is needed for CSF/CNS penetration sublinguals are far more reliable and we have identified at least two top notch brands that each as distinctive characteristics, just like wines from the same variety of grapes.
  15. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Glad you mentioned this Freddd, this raises a question I have had about your approach for awhile. You take so much B12, but probably only need the 5mg or less to supply the 'biological dose' that you need. Then you have hypothesized that the rest is used for neurological healing. Do you have a reference for that, or is this your own surmise?

    The reason for the question, I have been studying detox processes and considering the neurotoxin load common in CFS, and am wondering whether some of the excess B12 is acting directly as a scavenger? Particularly when injected directly. That would remove part of the CFS pathology and make the B12 a type of 'off label' use, for direct detox.

    Just curious why so much is needed in your case. I don't need more than maybe 10mg B12 (all forms) sublingual to get the effect that gets me out of bed and up and around, and took a long time to work up to that, literally had to start with 250mcg B12. I have been burned before on massive dose protocols, and before trying higher doses of B12 need a clear concept of what that would be accomplishing.

    Mag Chloride is essential for me with the B6 in particular, and I do have sulfation problems, very serious dysfunction of Liver phase III, measured in a provoked liver clearance detox profile. I think mag chloride and B6 may be essential for some non-responders on B12 protocols. But I would start with the mag chloride first, quarter tablets if you are concerned you might react negatively. Get some magnesium in you before re-starting up the B6 part of the methylation process.

    Freddd, you sound like someone who needs mag chloride!!! Palpitations were the first thing to reduce when I went on Mag Chloride+B6+Ester-C along with the mB12.

    And for the record, how about that, we found a supplement Fred has not tried.. :)

    I also had paradoxical reactions to 1/4 tabs of 1000mcg mB12 the first few doses. I had never reacted to cyano B12 that I took in the past, so it must be the methyl form. However, with mag chloride as mentioned above that went away. But I still have to manage my dose based on symptoms, gradually increasing dose and reducing when I get too much detox reaction.
  16. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Seconded. I couldn't help but think that sounds like a LOT of B12!! Although theoretically I guess there is supposedly no upper limit.


    Thanks for the report, I hope this reduces. I feel really trashed today, almost flu-like.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,
    Then you have hypothesized that the rest is used for neurological healing. Do you have a reference for that, or is this your own surmise?

    When my body healed but my CNS continued to deteriorate I became concerned. I developed foot drop, lost most of the feeling in the muscles of my feet, couldn't feel the wiggling of my toes, lost location sense of where my feet and legs were, started falling, was becoming incontinent and all that 5 years into normal sublingual doses and even 5mg/day injection. I found Japanese research with 50mg/day dosage in various forms for people with MS and ALS. They found people recovered function for the duration of the dosage, which was measured in months. They hypothesized that some people had some sort of transport blockage into the CSF. Then I found the research on intrathecal injection for diabetic neuropathy, having good results for the duration of elevated CSF cobalamin levels which was 3 months to 3 years. So some people lose cobalamin quickly from the CSF. Then the research that those with CSF/FMS have much lower CSF cobalamin levels even with "normal" or "high" serum cobalamin levels. Further research has shown the same thing for Parkinson's, MS, and other neurological diseases with more specificity of finding low cobalamin plus elevated MMA and/or Hcy in the CSF. One of the most recent indicated that Parkinson's might be caused by 20 years of low CSF cobalamin with elevated MMA in the CSF which indicates adb12 is low and they hypothesized that non-functioning mitochondria in the neurons eventually damages them.

    So I did a series of tests for CNS response with 50mg of mb12 in 3 hours of massive sublingual usage and a separate response for 51mg of adb12. I also did an injection series of 1-25mg single dose finding the same "threshold" effect at between 6mg and 7.5mg. The effect was in a couple of hours with the sublingual or injection. It lasted 6 hours. At 7.5mg 3 times a day it was yoyo. At 7.5mg 4x per day it was steady and the same at 3x10mg SC injections per day. Another person found the same steadiness at 2x15mg per day. I have regained part of the feeling in my feet, no more dropfoot (I don't trip over my toes), no more falling, no more lack of position awareness, no more lack of joint position awareness, no more incontinance. I can stand on one foot without falling over and I don't fall over in the dark. There is zero doubt about the effectivensss. Now the trick is to find the cause of all the regressions I have had. I have so far pinned it down to glutathione, folic acid, folinic acid, photolytically deteriorated mb12, less active mb12 and maybe there remains the mystery factor(s) yet to be found. I don't know yet as I haven't carried on the next level of trial 100% lacking folic/folinic acid with consistently reliable mb12 and adb12.

    So as you see it is a mix of a variety of journal articles and personal trials of myself and others.

    The reason for the question, I have been studying detox processes and considering the neurotoxin load common in CFS, and am wondering whether some of the excess B12 is acting directly as a scavenger? Particularly when injected directly. That would remove part of the CFS pathology and make the B12 a type of 'off label' use, for direct detox.

    That is hard to say. As there appears to be such minimal turnover of the mb12 in the CSF I kind of doubt that hypothesis. It's hard to get it into the CSF and it mostly leaves very slowly. When it acts to neutralize Botox and tetanus toxin it acts very quickly, minutes to an hour and is not an ongoing process though it has to be repeated daily until the cause is removed. The normal course of business is that 99% of the injected mb12 (actually all forms) is excreted in 1-2 days unchanged. The remarks by Dr Cutler is that if mb12 acted on mercury in the way so many fear, then it would be a direct detox mechanism. It may be, but only at at microgram rates daily, very slow, and would need large regular intrathecal injections.

    As far as the body goes, with so much of what has typically been identified as "detox" is clearly identifiable as methylfolate and b12 deficiency symptoms induced by glutathione, NAC, folic acid and folinic acid and reversible with Metafolin and mb12 (a few months more and we can have a better handle on that part), I may be able to say more after we see the effects of removing those symptoms and see what is left.

    Mag Chloride is essential for me with the B6 in particular, and I do have sulfation problems, very serious dysfunction of Liver phase III, measured in a provoked liver clearance detox profile. I think mag chloride and B6 may be essential for some non-responders on B12 protocols. But I would start with the mag chloride first, quarter tablets if you are concerned you might react negatively. Get some magnesium in you before re-starting up the B6 part of the methylation process.

    Magnesium is absolutely essential for the proper functioning of b12 and is in the basics as is b6. I have been taking p-5-p for nearly 8 years now in B-Right and for the past couple of years as a separate. The chloride may be better for people who have some absorption problems, I don't know. I currently have a separate magnesium supp with magnesium oxide, magnesium citrate and magnesium aspartate. I notice the difference when I have it and don't. However, I am a strong and fast responder, hypersensitive even, to mb12 and it's qualities. So far it hasn't come down to lack of response for me though it could be a very good thing to add the the "nonresponse" list. I need to see some more people having it make the difference. However, I do already note that magnesium can be one of the critical cofactors in eliciting a response.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,

    Seconded. I couldn't help but think that sounds like a LOT of B12!! Although theoretically I guess there is supposedly no upper limit.


    It seems that way to me too. It took me 6 years and desperation with much research to work up to it. However, compared to the doses used for cyanide detox, 35,000mg (35,000,000 mcg) of repeated IV doses, it isn't much. Also large injected doses were tested in uremics to see if there was any effect from lack of clearance of mb12, there wasn't any.
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Kurt -- following up on what you said about b12's potential detox and scavenging abilities, there was a study done ages ago that found low levels of methylation factors in AIDS patients:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8455481

    ...so I wonder if b12 and folate may have some sort of antiviral qualities as well...? A chicken and the egg thing I suppose...
  20. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    B complex with methylfolate

    AOR makes a B complex that uses active vitamins including methylfolate, no folic or folinic acid. I haven't tried it yet but see it is available at Amazon.

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