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Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    [​IMG] Originally Posted by dannybex [​IMG]
    Hi again Freddd,

    I've had the computer off all day today, and had some time to clear my foggy, foggy brain, and now can see and hopefully understand a little bit better what you're talking about here.



    I realized last night, that perhaps part of my 'crash' was due mainly to the excessive folates that were prescribed (four different brands, with only one of them being a dose of 1/4 tab), and the 2 b12's were the country life dibencozide (ADb12?), and hydroxyb12 drops from Yasko. (I chose the drops rather than the sublingual because whenever I have to hold something in my mouth for too long -- which I know is part of your protocol -- my salivary glands just ache and sometimes sting like crazy. Not enough amylase in my saliva?)

    Anyway, I didn't take any methyl-b12 this past fall during the methylation ramp-up so I can't blame it on that, unless perhaps some of the hydroxy was converted, but still, now I'm starting to have doubts about that as well. Plus, I've been off of the b12's and the folates (with the exception of a trial of a b-complex with results that don't seem to be positive), yet I STILL have very severe anxiety, plus muscle twitching in my feet, which I've had off and on for years, but 'on' for the last couple of months, and then this light neuropathy that also comes and goes, but has been more persistent.

    So, I guess I'm trying to say -- perhaps in my case -- that a trial of methyl-b12 might actually be worth considering. I'm not sure how I would do it considering the salivary gland issue, and would certainly want to be very cautious about it. But my symptoms -- at least the severe anxiety hasn't gotten much better at all, and it's been four months now, so that can't be from excess b12 or folates anymore, can it?

    Plus, your description of how much mb12 would be required to methylate a certain amount of mercury also jives with what Andrew Cutler says. (And I'm not mentioning him (again) because I think he's right and everyone else is wrong, but because he studied heavy metal issues for years, and recovered from merc poisoning using ALA, getting his PhD in the process.)
    I can post a link to his comments if you like, but it's also easily googled.

    Plus -- Kurt has been taking mb12 for at least six months now (along with some co-factors) and has done very well -- and he still has his fillings in his mouth. B6 was apparently also very important for him, but that seems to set me off -- definitely -- because of sulfation issues.



    But you have been able to heal, right -- even after multiple years of having extreme neuropathy in both feet? And my neuropathy/twitching has come and gone -- sometimes has gone for years (the twitching especially), so I tend to, believe it or not, tend to feel that sometimes this 'permanent' damage may not be so permanent. What say you? :)



    Don't get me started with SSRI's! Years ago my bosses insisted I see a REAL doctor and get some antidepressants, each and every one of which made me physically and mentally worse. In hindsight I think I can almost say that these past 3 months of hellish symptoms have been preferable over what I went through 12 years ago, but everyone reacts to those drugs differently. SAM-e is the one 'antidepressant' that will really pull me out of a hole, but it could be making me a little too wired now. Not sure however.



    Again, Freddd, I'm very sorry about what happened in your life, and grateful to you for the courage to express what you went through, both physically and mentally. Takes a lot of courage to go through that and come out the other side with a new life and you should be commended.

    I think that caution is still warranted, especially when you're talking to patients like myself with huge brain fog and concentration issues. Like I said above, it wasn't until after I posted last night that I realized you were kind of saying some of the same things I was -- that certain, specific b12 and folates may cause the worst of the negative reactions, whereas the adb12, the mb12 and the Metafolin specifically, may be helpful?

    Am I starting to understand you correctly?

    Thanks Freddd.

    Hi Dan,

    Like I said above, it wasn't until after I posted last night that I realized you were kind of saying some of the same things I was -- that certain, specific b12 and folates may cause the worst of the negative reactions, whereas the adb12, the mb12 and the Metafolin specifically, may be helpful?


    JACKPOT

    You have asked the right question at the right time. I now have most of the answer which jumped out at me when I saw your post. Thank you.

    The question that was nagging at me for the past 8 years concerned folic acid. I have done very large amounts of reading of journals and much other material about b12 and folates. Even 8 years ago there was some speculation that folic acid could block or in some other way hinder actual active folate. That was impossible to test until Metafolin became easily available. I share a genetic trait with about half the population that I can't convert folic acid to methylfolate in sufficient quantity to not be deficient. However, taking 400mcg of folic acid twice a day didn't seem to have any negative effect as long as I took sufficient Metafolin. My folate specific symptoms would recede. However I have recently performed another test which I decided I needed to do after the experience with Folinic acid. Guess what, more folic acid at the same times as the Metafolin dose with my b12 dose, taken in the form of adb12 with folic acid (Country Life Dibencozide) causes my leading edge folate deficiency symptoms to start coming back in 6-7 days. It BLOCKS the metafolin when taken at the same time (peaks coincide) from being effective. It causes folate deficiency symptoms just slightly slower than glutathione, in sufficient quantity. The Folinic acid at just 1 x 800mcg per day caused leading edge folate deficiency symptoms in 30 days. If I had taken it 3 times a day I bet it would have happened in the same 6-7 days as the folic acid. Obviously I am not going to keep taking it at that quantity and frequency until even more deficiency symptoms set in.


    To sum it up:


    1. Folic acid taken several times per day along with larger amounts of Metafolin blocks the Metafolin causing overt folate deficiency in 6-7 days.
    2. Folinic acid taken as 1 single 800mcg dose daily blocks 4800mcg of Metafolin in about 30 days sufficiently to cause overt folate deficiency symptoms.
    3. Glutathione starts causing overt folate deficiency symptoms starting within hours of a sufficient dose and is called a "detox" reaction.
    4. NAC is reported by others, to cause an identical "detox" reaction as glutathione within some unknown period, probably dependent upon dose.
    5. Hard folate deficiency symptoms are commonly called "detox" reactions.

    Folic acid and folinic acid do NOT predict Metafolin response. In fact they can cause the opposite effect in some unkown percentage of people, perhaps 50% if it is genetic.

    Cyanocbl does NOT predict Adb12 response or mb12 response and can worsen 2/3 of all b12 deficiency symptoms in perhaps 100% and worsen 100% of symptoms in perhaps 1/3 of people.

    Hydroxycbl does NOT predict Adb12 response or mb12 response and can worsen approximately 2/3 of all b12 deficiency symptoms in perhaps 100% of people and worsen approximately 100% of symptoms in perhaps 1/3 of people.

    The public health community was disappointed that folic acid flour supplementation reduced neural tube defects by only 27%. They were expecting far more effectiveness.

    Clearly the word "detox" is misapplied in identifying folate deficiency as a "detox" reaction.

    I realized last night, that perhaps part of my 'crash' was due mainly to the excessive folates that were prescribed (four different brands, with only one of them being a dose of 1/4 tab),

    Dan, I would expect that your crash was because of induced folate deficiency. You were taking sufficient folic or folinic acid to block methylfolate in your body inducing a severe folate deficiency. Further the hydroxb12 worsened many of your b12 deficiency symptoms and wouldn't work for many of the rest because of lack of methylfolate.

    We're all different...and those differences need to be taken into account when discussing certain reactions. Certainly no one can state that we'll all react the same way one particular person does -- we all have different factors that went into our becoming sick.

    I would predict that you and I are far more similar in our response to folic acid and folinic acid than either of us had any reason to think yesterday.

    yet I STILL have very severe anxiety, plus muscle twitching in my feet, which I've had off and on for years, but 'on' for the last couple of months, and then this light neuropathy that also comes and goes, but has been more persistent.

    The deficiency symptoms will last until you take methylb12 and metafolin. Reducing the adb12 to 1 or two doses of whatever size a week might help a lot, limiting the damage the folic acid can do to 24 hours a week. No wonder a once a week larger dose of adb12 worked so well for me. It limited the hours the folic acid was in my blood.

    So, I guess I'm trying to say -- perhaps in my case -- that a trial of methyl-b12 might actually be worth considering. I'm not sure how I would do it considering the salivary gland issue, and would certainly want to be very cautious about it. But my symptoms -- at least the severe anxiety hasn't gotten much better at all, and it's been four months now, so that can't be from excess b12 or folates anymore, can it?

    It never was from excess. It is induced folate deficiency and b12 deficiency from the forms that you took.

    When I first came to these forums, I wondered why so many people taking hydroxycbl and Folinic acid had such strong "detox"
    symptoms" that I said at the time looked like intensified deficiency symptoms. Now I know.
  2. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Hi Freddd,

    I compared the folic acid content of the country life products to the enzymatic therapy. Enzymatic therapy's mb-12 has no folic acid. Country Life's superior b-12 has 400 mcg of folic acid, compared to 200mcg in the dibencozide. So I am sticking with trying the enzymatic therapy brand for the mb12. I'll take your advice about the country life adb-12 to prevent the folic acid from blocking the mb12.
  3. maryb

    maryb Senior Member

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    Fredd and Danny - so glad you got there:victory::victory:
    Think this info will be so important for others on or about to try the methylation protocol.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,

    Sounds like a good plan of action. Now that the problem is identified people can experiment and find the limits of the problem.
  5. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    The Jarrow B-right has 400mcg of folic acid - so, if I'm understanding what Freddd's saying correctly, that may be not the best choice for some either?

    Dan,
    I'm sorry you've still got some of the worst of your symptoms - but glad if that's what's helped you work out the next best step on your alpine path! What Cutler says is at least reassuring.
    ...I have tried the methyl B12 lozenges BTW (1000mg). I'm not sure where the most ideal place is to keep them until they dissolve but I find under my top lip between 5am (I have to get up then for my puppy anyway) and 7am works fine and. for me anyway, it's no extra strain on a sore mouth.
    My Methyl B12 trial came about because my holistic heal stuff was held up in our customs service - don't know why - yet some iherb things did arrive, so I thought I'd see what happened in 48 hours - a la Kurt! I had an initial decrease in anxiety/tension, then prickly skin on my forearms followed by a prickly sensation inside my forehead - if that makes sense. Nothing too scary though.
    Best,
    Anne.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Anne,

    The Jarrow B-right has 400mcg of folic acid - so, if I'm understanding what Freddd's saying correctly, that may be not the best choice for some either?

    This is the part of things I don't have fully worked out yet. Here is the situation. When I was taking the Metafolin with my meals and with the B-right, it wasn't as effective as I thought it ought to be. I found that taking it at the same time as my b12 doses (injections and sublinguals) on an empty stomach some hours separated from my B-right at meal time and it was quite effective. When I upped my adb12 dose and included some with each mb12 dose the metafolin effectiveness went away. Both methylfolate and folic acid are short halflife whereas folinic acid has a longer serum halflife. So once a day dosing with folinic acid 800mcg was sufficient to bring about induced folate deficiency within a month and worsened for another month on the same dose of Metafolin, 4800mcg, as was adequate with 2x400mcg doses of folic acid a day with meals. I had no trouble maintaining myself folate deficiency symptom free for a couple of years with Metafolin not taken at the same time as the folic acid. It wasn't until I upped my dose of adb12 with the resulting addition of 600mcg of folic acid 3 times a day plus the 400mcg with each meal that rapid onset of folate deficiency symptoms occurred. Today, having cut out the 3x a day folic acid with the adb12/mb12 the angular cheilitis is already healing which indicates I am no longer in methylfolate deficiency.
  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yes, thanks Freddd very much for starting this thread, and for your reply. I am definitely willing to try your approach, but am beyond fried right now...will try to ask some questions later tonight.

    I certainly hope this is (at least part of) the JACKPOT. :)
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    I have been searching for the "missing" factor that has caused so many backslides and such for some years now and the reason I tried the glutathione. So perhaps the "missing" factor was actually the "blocking" factor of the wrong forms of folate.
  9. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    I like Pure Encapsulations B6 complex because it has active folate in it, fwiw
  10. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Thanks for the recommendation Liz!

    :)
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    I have an unopened bottle of Methyl-b12 (Jarrow), but just ordered the Metafolin today (Solgar is the brand you recommend, right?).

    I recall that Kurt started the b12 without the metafolin, but of course we're all different, and I remember Rich saying that I even though my b12 was 'high', he thought that was due to something he called the 'methyl trap'? So, would it be okay to start a small dose of methyl-b12 and wait before starting the metafolin?

    Remember, I'm Mr. Wired -- really wired(!) -- but REALLY tired too...so think I need to go slow.

    Also...how does problems with sulfation or transsulphuration (sp) relate to your protocol? I seem to have problems with b6, and the PST enzyme, but again, not sure.

    Thanks Freddd.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I think it would likely be fine to start the mb12 without the Metafolin. It might limit the extent of results or not. Often, other sudden deficiencies can occur. The potassium is the one lack that could be genuinely dangerous if things start healing suddenly.
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    I'm very happy about your epiphany with respect to the effect of folic acid on utilization of methylfolate. I was always puzzled at the very high dosages you were using for Metafolin, while I was hearing from people on the Simplified Treatment Approach that they were having to limit it to much smaller dosages to avoid intolerable detox symptoms. Some people use a wet toothpick to pick up a powdered daily dose, and even that much blows some of them away!

    For what it's worth, Dr. Amy Yasko has been pointing out for several years that folic acid can interfere with absorption of the reduced folates, folinic acid and methylfolate, and I've therefore been encouraging people on the simplified protocol to limit their intake of folic acid.

    So maybe we are coming closer together, at least on this issue.

    There are still a couple of issues that I would like for us to resolve. One is our difference over the benefit of folinic acid, and the other is our difference over glutathione.

    With regard to folinic acid, quite a few people are apparently able to convert it to methylfolate pretty well, though some are not. It is used quite a bit by the DAN! doctors for treating autism, and has been very helpful. Autism and CFS appear to have the same methylation problem at their root. Whether a person can utilize it seems to depend on what polymorphisms they have in the enzymes involved in making this conversion. I still believe that for most PWMEs/PWCs there is value in taking both folinic acid and methylfolate. The folinic acid can help to support the folate metabolism until methionine synthase can be brought up, and this is important for forming new RNA and DNA, for producing new cells, such as the blood cells and the cells lining the gut, which are replaced relatively rapidly. What is your current position on folinic acid? Has it been affected by your new view involving folic acid?

    With regard to glutathione, we have had a pretty big conflict, I think. Here I have been suggesting that glutathione depletion is what leads to the onset of most cases of ME/CFS, while here you have been saying that it is about the worst thing a person can take, based on your experience with it. Is that still your view of glutathione, or has it been changed as a result of your new thinking concerning how folic acid impacted your treatment in the past?

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,


    I'm very happy about your epiphany with respect to the effect of folic acid on utilization of methylfolate.

    At least I didn't emulate Archimedes.

    It is used quite a bit by the DAN! doctors for treating autism, and has been very helpful. Autism and CFS appear to have the same methylation problem at their root.

    I think that they need to do multiple A-B crossovers with each person and and actually test the hypothesis in each individual. What are they doing right now for the non responders or those who respond badly?

    I want to clarify on the folinic acid. Mg for mg, the folinic acid was worse than the folic acid. 800mcg once a day and I went into the folate deficiency in about a month. If it was 3 times a day, it probably would have happened as quickly as with the folic acid. I suspect that the folic acid/folinic acid response of blocking the methylfolate very likely is genetic. It is very apparant who it happens to here by their responses. And again, it is impossible to see if the person already has the deficiency symptoms unless the worsen a lot.

    It was that disaster with the glutathione that taught me what an induced "hard" folate deficiency looked like. The effects started within hours of the first dose and got worse each day from there. For the same effect to take a month with the folinic acid at 800mcg single dose as the glutathione in a few days would have been very easy to miss and it would have been just another one of those variations in healing. You have said that the glutathione increases naturally if the methylation is restored and I think that is the way to do it, treat the methylation block/depletion and the rest of the b12/methylfolate deficiency symptoms and the body will tend towards normal. All along I have been saying that each of these steps increases the probability that more people will be helped. So now these people with glutathione "detox" response and those with NAC "detox" reponse and folinic acid "detox" response and folic acid "detox" response are all having the identical increased methylfolate deficiency symptoms in addition to b12 deficiency symptoms. If you go back to some of my earliest posts on here you will note that I indicated that what people were calling "detox" reaction under the several specified circumstances were worsened b12 or b12/folate deficiency symptoms. WIth a couple of years more experience with methylfolate, glutathione, folinic acid and folic acid I can now identify the specifically folate deficiency symptoms with far more certainty. Now I have identified that "hole through which the armored truck can be driven".

    At this point I would compare trying glutathione while taking folinic acid as more like playing Russian roulette with multiple chambers loaded. It's asking for trouble.

    It all adds up to me that folic acid can be tolerated if few enough small enough doses with enough off-setting methylfolate, that folinic acid is worse and glutathione is worst of all. Now none of those things or all of those thongs might affect any given person. What is the cumulative number that will get into trouble with one, two or three of these items? 10%? 30%? 50%? More?

    Add on top of that lack of effectiveness of hydroxycbl even with methylfolate instead of mb12/adb12 with it and it's a recipe for increased illness for a significant percentage of the people trying it. These "detox" reactions are a very different kettle of fish from the mb12/adb12 startup responses. I've been watching it for two years now. I would suspect that there is a high selection factor for people with these specific folic/folinic acid problems in the CSF/FMS and b12 deficiency communities. It may even be why so many people actually have b12 deficiency symptoms is because it is induced by the folic/folinic problem. Maybe this is the missing link. At this point I would make book on it (if I did such things), not that this is the missing link, but that a significant number of people are going to be made a lot worse by glutathione (probably subject to dose and frequency) or folic acid (subject to dose and frequency)/folinic acid (subject to dose and frequency) with hydroxcbl.

    I know how to duplicate the glutathione "detox" reaction, the NAC "detox" reaction and the "folic/folinic acid "detox" reaction. I know what approximate frequency and doses are needed. Many develop such problems at much lower levels of dose. So now if we have some volunteers who think it can't happen to them, it's time to see if it does. I think we really need to see if it happens to everybody who takes enough of the test substance(s) or just certain selected (genetically?) persons. Perhaps you would like to try duplicating these induced folate deficiency reactions in yourself. It would be very interesting regardless of the outcome. If you know what your leading edge folate deficiency symptoms or signs are you could reverse it before you did any serious damage that wouldn't reverse in a week or two. Maybe it's and matter of simple dose and frequency. Or maybe dose and frequency and genetics.

    I think. Here I have been suggesting that glutathione depletion is what leads to the onset of most cases of ME/CFS,

    I would sugest that the depleted glutathione is a result of these other substances being present or lack of the right ones. I might puut it this way. As a result of a certain type of response to folic acid or taking cyanocbl/hydroxycbl the methylation cycle becomes broken and then the depletion of glutathione is a result of that, one more biochemical marker on the way to worsening deficiencies. Maybe it starts with baby formula or fortified cereals etc with folic acid and/or cyanocbl/hydroxycbl.

    while here you have been saying that it is about the worst thing a person can take, based on your experience with it.

    And the experience of 100% of the others trying it regardless of the cause of their b12/folate deficiencies (including vegetarians etc) if they had previously had a lot of effectiveness from mb12/adb12/Methylfolate. All this one takes is a basis for comparison. If the person already has serious deficiency symptoms they wouldn't notice the difference. Only those that can get a lot worse notice it.

    Many people are recognizing themselves in these responses the past few days. This makes a lot of sense to these people, explaining their symptoms and responses and a way out of it. Some have been doing plan A and are switching to Plan B. So I think with some patience and helping hands that we shall see over the next weeks to months how that works out.

    I think that the hydroxycbl/folinic acid combo with or without glutathione is considerably more dangerous to a lot more people than mb12/adb12/methylfolate, especially without warnings and informed consent of the hazards now so obvious. They need to be under the care of a doctor who would recognize leading edge folate deficiencies and how to reverse them. We can define the problem better now. It has taken me two years to understand what was going on with so many people on the simplified protocol. I am 100% sure that I have this part pegged. I have had to do a lot of rethinking on this. I now suspect that this is the more fundamental problem or tied for it with cyanocbl/hydroxycbl. It's a real double whammy. The fortification of white flour with folic acid may not be such a good idea. It might be a real problem for some people and may turn into a major public health disaster over the next decade or two not likely to be recognized. Now I know why. Good for the UK in resisting it so far. I don't participate in that. I don't eat white flour or products made from white flour.

    I will have patience and observe the results of the changes now occurring, both in myself and in others. The only difference in the people here and those on the other forums I have participated is is what names they pin on their deficiencies syndromes, what theories they operate under thereby and their results. Their symptoms are the same universe with individual combinations of the 5 deficiencies. People here have all sorts of neurological problems. They just don't put that as their number one problem. They don't separate out central versus peripheral. Instead the mb12 deficiencies are secondary to the adb12 deficiencies with perhaps folate deficiencies predominating, at least for some.

    In the meantime if you could tell us how folic and/or folinic acid could block greater amounts of methylfolate from being effective I for one would be very interested.

    Perhaps we have found the reason for CFS/ME/FMS, b12 deficiencies, all manner of neurological diseases and problems just exploding over the past 40 years. Maybe we are seeing the third major wave of man-made nutritional deficiency diseases and now have a possible cause..
  15. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Wow! This is great stuff. To hear two highly intelligent, well reserached gentlemen discuss and collaborate on this gives me great hope for all of us. I know you'll see things differently, everyone does, but to discuss these differences openly and get each others input, instead of competing, is inspiring. I wish traditional medicine would do this more.

    Please keep up the good work guys.
  16. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Funny i was taking 800 mg methylfolate and i was dreaming again. Then i added dibenzocide with 200 mg folate and I stopped dreaming. I increased methylfolate to 1600 but nothing.. I stopped it yesterday and yes; I dreamt again.so I'll now try both with 2400 methylfolate and see if I dream.
  17. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    I believe we are already seeing that. It would be nice to get figures of when they started this and correlate to all the syndromes they have labeled diseases as well as the diseases in which were considred "rare" are now popping up like daises. Have you noticed the literal explosion since the early 1990's?

    In my own experiences with white flour and bakery goods, I would often have an immediate stupor follow their ingestion. We searched and tested for diabtetes. Although it did raise my blood glucose, it didn't explain that very same stupor when eating other foods. I was able to identify amylase foods, in which includes white flour as being the culprit for those stupor like reactions. It would also be interesting to find any correlations to folic acid and its affects on amaylase as well as methylfolate.

    Laurie
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Leaves,

    I noticed from the start that Metafolin increased my dreaming. And it started up again 2 days ago after it shut down again with the folic acid. I have another leading edge indicator. Thank you.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Several years ago I pinpointed when my problems got much worse. In the 60s and 70s I can put some brand names on it; Metracal, Special K, Instant Breakfast and other such cyanocbl/folic acid enriched foods. Previuosly I had thought it was purely the cyanocbl. But now with the indication that folic acid can make me sick in a week I would have to say the folic acid plays a quicker role. That quickness had always puzzled me. For infants on formula who go into "failure to thrive" I would have to suspect the folic acid as much as the cyanocbl now. For that matter, what is the correlation with SIDS and folic acid fortified formula or cereals? That's a question I've never seen asked?
  20. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Danny, don't know if this helps, but I only take the B6 with magnesium chloride, they seem to be synergistic. I think B5 is indicated in some cases and not B6, have you tried B5? Magnesium is the elephant in the room here in my opinion, it is important in methylation and probably depleted by some of the co-infections present in CFS. I did start without methylfolate, but I was using B6+mB12+magnesium chloride+ester-C, and I believe it was the combination that worked, not just the B12. I had tried each of those before alone, including B12, and never had this positive, calming response before.

    Actually I find that I need more than just potassium, I need all four electrolytes when things are improving. I take a liquid form that has all four, but add extra potassium chloride and magnesium chloride. LOTS of extra magnesium.

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