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Folates from vegetables

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Journeyman, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    I recall Dr Ben Lynch (MTHFR.net fame) recommending the avoidance of folic acid in various forms for those with certain polymorphism's such as the common MTHFR677T and A1298C as it results in unmetabolised folate promoting carcinogens as it lingers in the body.

    Where do vegetables stand in this regard? I've poured over this forum to try and find a clear answer and cannot to date. lotus97 raised it... DBKita provided an explanation which did seem to gel with something I'd read or seen on that MTHFR.net video but can't find a definitive response.

    As someone whose got CYP1A2 and CYP2D6 polymorphisms on the detox panel I have an interest in continuing to take in large amouunts of cruciferous vegetables to promote the activity of these underfunctioning genes, however I don't want to find that I'm introducing a collection of folates that are competing with and rendering useless the expensive 5MTHF I'm supplementing....

    If anyone could provide clarity on this issue I'd be grateful....
  2. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I've thought about the same thing as it relates to "Whole Food Multi-Vitamins" just list it as folates. It doesn't distinguish which type you are getting. Hopefully someone can answer this for us.
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    "Folic acid" is a synthetic vitamin which needs to be converted by the MTHFR enzyme. Those with MTHFR mutations will have trouble converting it. This a major chunk of the population. However, most people should be ok with other forms of folate, including those from vegetables. There are a few people who have noticed they get worse if they eat a lot of vegetables. Those people may have some other type of mutation which blocks conversion of the type of folates in vegetables. This is supposed to be more rare. I don't think anyone has figured out what mutation this might be as of yet.
    Wayne and Journeyman like this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    With folic acid about 50% can convert it up to about 800mcg, the limit considered not dangerous to cover up SACD. Another 30% convert >0 and < 800mcg and 20% convert 0%. These are approximate depending which studies are read. They may vary a few percent. Then there are some who have a similar propensity to accumulate folinic acid and it bocks l-methylfolate. It appears that probably the same people have a similar problem with too much vegetable folates. Somehow b1, b2 or b3 might somehow increase the propensity to paradoxical folate insufficiency with vegetable folates at least. There is not even an estimate of what percentage might be so affected; very indefinite "some".
    Wayne likes this.
  5. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    Thanks as always for your contribution Fredd... I had to do a search for SACD 'Sub Acute Combined Degeneration' per one of your other threads. When you say "the limit considered not dangerous to cover up SACD" are you reminding that the 'public' 'recommended values' are merely the dosages for most people to avoid serious degeneration, but do nothing to actually reverse any existing methylation breakdowns?

    Re: the "Somehow B1, B2, and b3 might somehow increase the propensity to paradoxical folate deficiency" I take benfotiamine from life extension which I note is an advanced form of B1 and its potent: 250mg. I've been taking two tablets in the morning with 200mg SAM-E, 1mg MeB12 and 1-2mg of 5MTHF but now on being reminded of this paradoxical folate deficiency I'm thinking about titrating it out altogether for a few days and seeing if my energy improves. I'm just back from a 50 minute ride with the heart rate between 140-170 the whole way and I do this once every 3 days or so... It's disappointing how weakened and fatigue I'm left after this... I'll be good to go again in 2 days time but I notice my tendons are becoming creaky as I do my yoga stretches (my other hobby) and I felt like something was giving way in my right knee as I pushed hard today....

    Waiting on my potassium gluconate to come from iHerb so just eating as many oranges and apples as I can to offset what I suspect is an effective PFD (albeit minor)
  6. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Where are these studies?

    I've read a lot of the research, and haven't seen any mutations where MTHFR activity is reduced below 10% or so. And the only common one is C677T, which reduces activity to 30% of normal in about 8% of people, and to 65% of normal in about 36% of people.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Valentijn,

    There are NUMEROUS studies on folic acid dating back many decades that did it the old fashioned way, they measured it over and over again in selected groups, not based on this or that interpretations of genes. While these studies vary some what, Ie. the one I have used for 25 years or so is a group from the same study (all the factors are interdependent etc) as 20% shows up at various levels from 16% to 22% or so, the 800mcg top conversion amount has been stated to be as up to 1000mcg and numerous other such variations which in the end don't amount to any significant differences.

    Obviously they don't know ALL the factors. Lack of conversion can occur because of lack of sufficient ATP for instance because of lack of AdoCbl or lack of LCF, or that is impaired because of lack of the needed methylation from L-methylfolate or MeCbl, caused perhaps because of polymorphism or another in some gene or another. It goes way beyond being as simple as "only common one" . That is why those 4 are a potential deadlock no matter which direction one comes at it from if left incomplete.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  8. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Is there a title for it, or an author and year?
  9. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Hi @Journeyman,

    Rich Van Konynenburg told me that a meal with a lot of folinic acid (the folate form present in food that has to be converted to methyltetrahydrofolate to be bioactive) could start a methylation that was blocked due to genetics temporarily for good or bad.

    Liver, and chicken liver, is the food that contains most of folinic acid as far as I have read, so it is not just found in vegetables. A meal with chicken liver contains 900 mcg folinic acid according to lists that is available in my country.

    MTHFR polymorfisms are more common on Sicily in Italy (and also in some other places) but there are not more neural tube defects among newborn on the island. It has been discussed that this depends on the folinic rich food that people/women eat. Sorry, I can´t find the source.

    Helen
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  10. yukito

    yukito

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    Asian vegetables seem to be richer in methylfolate than folinic acid.

    https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/10-167

    Interesting.Any existing source for that statement?
  11. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    [quote="yukito, post: 399227, member: 9096"


    Interesting.Any existing source for that statement?[/quote]

    Yes, in Swedish :) from the "National Food Institution" (don´t know how to translate), but this should be possible to check up from more sources.

    Helen
  12. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Yes, in Swedish :), from "The National Food Institution" (don´t know how to translate), but I am sure this could be checked in many similar sources.

    Helen
  13. yukito

    yukito

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    http://books.google.be/books?id=wfY82pBJmfsC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=metilfolato higado&source=bl&ots=vLDUDPqiDQ&sig=S78K4jff0ziott4iauiDOszjO2M&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=dOxvUquXGIWVhQeY24HYDw&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=metilfolato higado&f=false
    Methylfolate is the main form of the b9 vitamin in the serum and in the human liver. (4th line on the right side)
    Same for the animal liver.chicken or others.
    Helen likes this.
  14. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Thanks Yukito,
    This was really interesting as methylfolate is even more critical when it comes to start up a blocked methylation (temporarily) as it is the bioactive form of folates.
    I think it is good for us with defects in the MTHFR to know what kind of food that contains high levels of folates . If a meal makes you feel bad it might be due to high folate intake, not only allergies or whatsoever that could be a problem for some after a meal.

    Helen
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  15. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    What an awesome article yukito. Even from my part of the world - I even shopped at that supermarket shown in the article picture! It seems that as long as you eat less than 200gm of these vegetables at a time the amount of non 5MTHF folate should be fairly negligible - particularly given how its offset by the higher ratio of 5MTHF's... Thks again
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Valentijn,

    If you go to Google Scholar, set patents off, set your language preferences (advanced features), search something like >> folic acid conversion Pteroylglutamic acid accumulation and you will find some articles that mention conversion rates amongst segments of the population such as I have mentioned. There was lots of speculation about the problems it caused but there was no way to compare it to l-methylfolate in the 60s and 70s. I didn't invent this idea. I suffered from it.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Journeyman,

    I got very excited thinking about it, even with mouth watering. I grow and use at least choy sum with flowers evident (increases folate 50% or so) by picture, just one of many sold as bok choy in the USA and about as high a folate content as any. And then I thought back to experience. Choy sum causes paradoxical folate deficiency. By directly experimenting with folinic acid I found that folinic acid was , for me, worse than folic acid. Folinic acid appeaed to block 20 times as much L-methylfolate. When I added 800mcg of folinic acid I had to increase Metafolin by 16mg a day to prevent paradoxical folate deficiency. The more choy cum I eat, or spinach or swiss chard or any others the more Metafolin I have to take to offset it's huge negative effects, which appear influenced by excess b1, b2 and b3. Be careful. Jumping to conclusions could be as dangerous to your health as it is to mine.

    Choy Sum folates
    So total folates = 192.9 mcg/100 gr
    5-MeTHF = 11.4mg
    5-Formyl THF = 11.5mg

    There are 15.92 times as much other folates. No wonder it puts me into hard folate insufficiency so quickly.
    Journeyman likes this.
  18. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    What gene is responsible for the Pteroylglutamic acid accumulation issue and is this the alternative way to describe the same folate intolerance we've been discussing earlier in the thread?
    I've heard of MTHFS being a gene relevant to folate processing and that I can use Promethease or 'minor allele programme' to find whether I have the mutation... ?
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  19. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Fred,

    Your calculation needs to be adjusted. The folate di-glutamate amounts also included in Table 9 need to be added to the folate mono-glutamate amounts you used. They are both biologically equivalent, of course. So we'd have:

    Choy Sum (flowered) folates:
    Total folates = 192.9mcg/100g
    5-MeTHF (methylfolate) = 11.4(mono) + 71.1(di) = 82.5mcg (mixed glutamate forms)
    5-Formyl THF (folinic acid) = 11.5(mono) + 75.8(di) = 87.3mcg (mixed glutamate forms)

    So there are actually only (192.9 - 82.5)/82.5 = 1.34 times as much other folates vs the methylfolate glutamates, by weight, instead of 15.92 times. (From the graph of Figure 9, in terms of folic acid equivalents, there is slightly more folinic acid than methylfolate for that vegetable.)
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nandixon,

    Right. Unfortunately it doesn't matter in the least. My experience is to multiply the folinic acid by 20 to estimate the amount of Metafolin I needed to overcome it when I took an extra 100mg of B1. I haven't repeated that trial since going off the extra Bs. That was the difference that folinic acid of known amount made, and I have eaten carefully from the garden since finding out how fast overdoing folate containing veggies can put me right into folate insufficiency. Having since stopped ALL extra b-complex vitamins things are much better balanced, everything has calmed down and I can get back to being focused on solving my remaining problems and slowly improving the balance and being aware of where "going too far" starts. "it puts me into hard folate insufficiency so quickly" remains true regardless of the numbers. and is not based on theory and numbers.

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