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Folates for boosting histamine

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Unim, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. Unim

    Unim

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    I am intending to try boosting my histamine per the Pfeiffer approach to treating histapenia. However, most sources of information on this only suggest folic acid as part of the treatment.

    I'm wondering if there could be any reason that folic acid would be more effective at increasing histamine than folinic acid?

    I've been experimenting, and tolerate calcium folinate fine, but folic acid seems to be destabilising my mood.

    Cheers.
     
  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I think Pfeiffer's ideas are a bunch of pseudoscience. Folate won't do much to raise your histamine, in fact methyl donors are used to break it down. B3 however, can raise blood histamine.

    If you are intent on raising histamine, I would simply take l-histidine or l-carnosine (histamine precursors).
     
  3. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    I am most likely not understanding this thread correctly but why would someone want to increase histamine?! I am currently to take four meds to try to decrease it.

    The original poster said that Folic acid (and I assume also folate?) increases it and I had a horrible reaction last year when I tried B12 and Folate and now I am wondering if this is why!!!

    Can someone explain the connection (if there is one?). Thanks in advance.
     
    justy likes this.
  4. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    The only mechanism I can think of is that folate increases the immune response, which involves some release of histamine from mast cells.

    I don't believe that histapenia or histadelia (Pfeiffer) are real conditions.
     
  5. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @adreno so if someone is having too much histamine, then Folate is bad? I do not take folate anyway but just want to confirm I got this right? Will google the other parts tomorrow and am not familiar with them and this whole issue is still new for me. Thanks again!
     
  6. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    As I said above, methylation is needed to break down histamine. So folate isn't "bad", but you might want to be careful with dosing, so as not to overdrive your immune response.

    If you have high histamine, it's likely a sign of an excessive immune response. So you need to damp down the inflammation in general.
     
    dannybex and justy like this.
  7. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Even if histapenia existed (which it doesn't, though is there some small truth to it) it would make no sense to take folate. If you are an overmethylated, high dopamine type with no allergies and a tendency toward mania or psychosis, it is well known that taking methyl donors, methionine loading, antihistamines like benadryl etc. can cause such people to decompensate with all kinds of scary psychiatric symptoms. Internet forums are full of people who temporarily go nuts as a result of reading nonsense from methylation gurus and trying these supplements.

    As adreno said, if you believe this stuff, l-histidine or niacin would be the treatment but I'd be very careful with these if you have allergies.
     
  8. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    Hi,
    Just wanted to put my 2 cents into this,
    I have actually done the test for this (through Dr. Mensah) . I am Overmethylated (low histamine)
    It is not a bunch of baloney , as some people are suggesting... In fact, after introducing some of the supplements
    It has truly changed my life for the better.
    But the issue I have encountered is a few of the supplements have improved my symptoms but caused other side effects.
    For example Folic Acid literally changes my mood. Within an hour of taking 800mcg I am happy and enthusiastic about life and i start to smile more... And anyone who says its placebo is talking out of their behind.. I know how i feel.... but the problem is within a day or so of using Folic Acid I start to get headaches... this has something to do with me as an individual and not every Overmethylated person will necessarily suffer the same side effect .. I have SIBO (small intestine bacterial over-growth) and I am sensitive to lots of stuff which causes headaches. I have recently ordered a Folic Acid spray and hope to receive it next week.. I am planning to apply it to my wrist and see if I still get the good feelings without the side effects... Wish more companies made transdemal supplements for people with GI issues like myself .
     
    Wayne and Gondwanaland like this.
  9. Unim

    Unim

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    I've heard to be wary of the superstition from the Pfeiffer people. My intention is to use histidine mainly. I hoped the Pfeiffer stuff wouldn't hurt, presuming they monitored with testing. One case I read of somoene who improved on histidine, they could not tolerate folate or B12. Other anecdotes quickly descend into the counter-intuitive Pfeiffer stuff and it just gets confusing. I will drop the methylating stuff and start on histidine, then see where I'm at.

    My goal is to raise brain histamine, hopefully increase awareness and motivation, maybe even emotionality and sociality. I can't get blood testing, but since I have no seasonal allergies etc. it shouldn't be too risky.

    Interestingly folic acid gave me IBS after 1 week, which subsided shortly after taking a quarter of the same dose in methyl form. I've tried to remain neutral on the folate subject, but I guess folic acid doesn't agree with me anyway.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  10. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    Pfeiffer approach is based on solid lab tests.
    Did you have your histamine levels tested? Or are you basing your diagnosis based on symptoms?
     
  11. Unim

    Unim

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    I don't have a supportive doctor, so just going on vague symptoms. A shot in the dark really. I don't have seasonal allergies, headaches, also my wounds heal very poorly and never itch. I am wondering if my anhedonia, apathy, avolition, asociality etc. may have worsened since taking methylating supplements, but it is hard to tell.

    This blog has gathered some information that may be of interest:
    http://area1255.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/natural-herbal-histamine-3-h3r.html
    http://area1255.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/histamine-receptors-h1h2h3-and.html

    I am tempted to try supplemental conessine if all else fails, but I tend to have bad luck with unusual supplements.
     
  12. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I read those blogs a few weeks ago from a thread on Longecity talking about histamine H3 antagonists. I ordered the Kutaj supp thinking the stim effects of conessine might be right up my alley. Only been taking it for 5 days now and no doubt I'm not taking enough of it yet to have any effect, if it will have an effect. The blogger said you need more caps of the Kutaj to get the same effects of the Yamoa. Postivie thing is, I have no negative effects so far. I should have ordered more than one bottle. Takes longer for this supp to arrive so I won't be able to raise my dosage up yet until I get more. If appetite supression is a sign of it's effects, then I'm probably not taking enough of it, because at this point, my appetite has only very slightly been reduced. Of course I have always been one where I need to take larger doses of anything for a supp to have any effects at all.
     
  13. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    This post from the blogger in one of the Longecity threads got me interested in looking at an H3 antagonist...

    "All of those things markedly improved while on sarcosine + DAA....and then improved X5 when I added a histamine H3 antagonist. Which seems to go a lot further than either alone. Also should be noted that histamine H3 antagonists are being looked at for ADHD, Schizophrenia, Depression etc - --- even in people who have high histamine their symptoms improved because Histamine H3 receptor is the one histamine receptor responsible for almost all of histamine's CNS side-effects. Histamine H3 receptor is, as I always say; one of the most, if not the most - nastiest receptors in the human biology and seems to cause nothing but trouble - regardless of high or low histamine."

    "I have pretty high histamine levels - and I've used H3 antagonists (which raise histamine) and I felt 10x better, in theory I shouldn't have because it would send my histamine through the Roof (due to negative feedback). But again, things aren't always that linear and clear cut - Histamine H3 receptors are a disgrace to the human CNS - they decrease glutamate, acetylcholine, dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, serotonin (virtually every NT in the book). They are GARBAGE - and when I find a way to wipe the receptor out completely, then I will have completed part of my mission. Hopefully downregulation over time with betahistine and Yamoa/Kutaj."

    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topi...eatment-of-depression-not-just-schizophrenia/
     
    Ema likes this.
  14. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    With all due respect if I were you I would get some basic tests done first.
    It will save you much time and suffering.
    Here are the test I recommend:
    http://pyroluriatesting.com/shop/me...rum-copper-zinc-plasma-whole-blood-histamine/
    This test will give you an idea if your histamine is high, low or in range.
    Also it will tell you if you have Pyrolle disorder. People with Pyrolle disorder basically lose B6 and Zinc in their urine.
    And guess what? B6 and Zinc effect the histamine conversion , Histadine needs B6 to covert to Histamine.... you need to know this basic stuff about yourself before
    trying supplements... trust me , as I am typing this, I am sitting in my room with a shelf of over 100 supplements I tried over a 10 year period before this test helped me understand a little about which supplements are good for me and which ones i need to avoid...

    For those who want to understand how to diagnose and treat after they have their test results above I recommend reading this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Power-Heal-Biochemistry-Brain-ebook/dp/B00J75IQUA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428333111&sr=8-1&keywords=dr. walsh power
     
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  15. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I am not sure if I have high histamine, but suspect that I might because I have horrible allergies to pollen (particularly trees), which affect my brain and sleep by making me excessively wired.

    In addition, I am horribly sensitive to folate (both methyl folate and folinic acid). Taking just a smidge can make me very wired for a day or two. Also, I do horribly with benadryl (aka bena-drill-a-hole-in-your-head) which precipitates a hideous neurotransmitter hell.

    So these seem contradictory...

    Are there tests for histamine? Or does the methylation panel Rich used to recommend test that as well? I'd like to figure this one out.
     
  17. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Well, Benadryl is a really strong drug, lots of people react badly to it regardless of their histamine level. Have you tried any of the newer allergy meds like Zyrtek, Allegra, Claritin etc?

    You can get histamine tested in blood and urine, sure.
     
  18. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    IN general I avoid meds. I take high dose quercitin or pycnogenol or both. Never tried the other allergy drugs. Which one of them works best on the inflammatory response.... as that is my primary issue?

    I will look into the lab tests. Is blood or urine more accurate?

    Also... still wondering how my histamine could be high if I tend to over-methylate so easily?
     
  19. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Well, "inflammatory response" is such a broad term. If you mean allergy/histamine issues, then quercetin can be quite useful, although personally it makes me worse.

    I am not sure about histamine blood vs urine testing. I vaguely recall that both are useful. I would recommend googling around on mast cell websites, they will know much more about this.
     
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  20. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    If you really want to raise your histamine levels why don't you take histidine or better let pure histamine sublingually instead. Believe it or it is actually avail and there are pple using it to treat MS. Folic acid is not the same as methylfolate, it has no methyl groups so at some point you also have to decide if you are an over or under methylator. If you think you are an over methylator then you won't need too much methyl groups and folic or folinic acid will work for you.
    If u eat lots of smoked fish, fermented foods (eg cheese kimchi wine ketchup) u raise your histamine lvls quite a bit naturally.
     
    Peyt likes this.

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