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Folate trap causes: b12 or methionine? Or both?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Irwin, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. Irwin

    Irwin

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    I'm concerned about this since I'm BHMT08 rs651852 +/+, Nutrahacker points this gene Methylates homocysteine to methionine, so I think I have less methionine, leading to more susceptibility to folate trap

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(81)90650-4/abstract

    "Since homocysteine is derived entirely from methionine, methionine deficiency will cause intracellular folate deficiency, and the rate of mitosis of rapidly dividing cells will be reduced. although these two processes have evolved as a response to methionine deficiency, they also occur in B12 deficiency, which the cell mistakenly interprets as lack of methionine. the resulting response is inappropriate and gives rise to a potentially lethal anaemia."
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    What are your blood results for red blood cell count, B12, folate, homocysteine?
     
  3. Irwin

    Irwin

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    These results are from 2 months ago
    Vitamin b12 (ciano) 612 pg/ml
    Homocysteine 7,3 umol/L
    Red blood cell 4,79 millions/mm3
    Hemoglobin 13,8 g/dL

    I didn't measure folate levels.

    I'm also MTRR A66G +/+
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Those results look good. What are your symptoms?
    Eating eggs should get you covered for BHMT and MTRR. There are a lot of methyl donors in runny yolks (choline).
     
  5. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Low motivation, nocturne hypoglicemia (waking up in the middle of night with brain shocks), difficulty to gain weight, low libido. I used to have more symptoms, like low physical resistance, but it improved after I started to use vitamin d3, fish oil, vitamin c and magnesium.
    I just screwed everything like 3 weeks ago when I used methyl folate+ hydrob12 (didn't know I was MTRR), got panic attacks and brain fog (that disappeared after using b12 alone). But after this I screwed myself again using Epocler (500mg Tmg, 1000mg choline citrate and 100mg methionine) 3 days in a row, I'm totally lacking motivation and libido, plus some times I have difficulty to breath. Seems like I don't tolerate much methyl donors. But I really miss the HUGE benefits I felt the first time using methyl folate. I have 2 VDR +/+ and some COMT +/-, Yasko says I act like COMT -/- but I don't tolerate much methyl groups.

    After returning to my baseline, I think I'll use acid folic and methyl b12, but with high doses of niacin to use lots of methyl groups. Sounds a stupid idea or a good one? At the same time, BHMT and MTRR are asking for methyl...
     
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think that taking a low dose, well balanced B complex would help to get you back to your baseline. And have a clean diet with no processed foods.

    I have been exactly there where you are, and Methylfolate screwed up my already weak thyroid.
     
  7. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Something in the B complex doesn't make me so good, I think it's B6 or B2. I feel more numb and apathy, symptoms of increased serotonin.

    I was thinking about follow Freddd's protocol, but he claims almost every bad symptoms is to paradoxical low folate. If I don't react well to too much methyl groups, imagine whether I increase it whenever I feel bad...
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Serotonin breakdown by B2. The only thing that helped me with that was T3 hormone
    You can't follow the protocol while you can't tolerate a B complex. Plus you should read Caledonia's document "Start Low and Go SLow"
     
  9. Irwin

    Irwin

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    B6 is also involved with serotonin
    Thanks for your tips. I was more able to tolerate the b complex before my methylfolate trials... I don't know how I messed everything, seems like another case here in PR the guy used sam-e and got terrible long lasting effects. Or I messed with my neurotransmiters, or I induced a kind of folate trap now.
    I'm also lacking hunger and stomach acid (never had this before)
     
  10. maz

    maz

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    Folkestone UK
    Hey guys, what about the idea that die-off makes us feel worse before we get better anyway? I'm new on here (but had ME 11 years) and trying to do a simplified methylation protocol.
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Yes, it helps with serotonin synthesis from Tryptophan
    I guess it could be said that B2 and B6 have antagonist action in relation to serotonin
    If you have a good integrative/functional doctor/nutritionist you could discuss with him about supplementing a small dose (~20-30mg) of 5-Htp, magnesium and B6 (small dose) at 6 PM which is when serotonin starts to be broken down to turn into melatonin
    This approach helped me and I was able to stop it completely when I started supporting thyroid with T3 hormone.
    Also ask him to check your iron/ferritin levels
    I don't think we get die-off with methylation supplements
     
  12. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    South East England, UK
    @Irwin I am homozygeous for the same SNP and I don't tolerate more than the 250 mcg methylfolate that is in the 3 Thornes Basic Nutrients I have been taking since 2007, however I seem to be fine with folinic acid. There is another 250 mcg foline in the BN and the last few days I have added in around 400 mcg folinic without any ill effects.

    Also I don't tolerate methylb12 but do fine with AdnB12 and HydroxyB12 and I am hoping that my body will be able to convert these ok even though I do have some SNPS which impair this. The last Organic Acid test in 2013 showed I had a great need for more folate and to a lesser extent B12 so I know the 3 Thorne Basic Nutrients aren't sufficient for me.

    Have you tried the folinic form at all?

    Pam
     
  13. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Are you MTRR A66G +/+ ? Any MTHFR? And BHMT08?
    Since I haven't any MTHFR mutation, I was thinking about try this kind of folate. Methyl stuff really messed with my body in some way, this is a dangerous territory.
    Do you feel better using adb12, hydrob12 and folinic acid? What's your symptoms?
     
  14. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @Irwin
    What is "folate trap" exactly? Do you mean "methyl trap"? The latter is a generic term to define a situation when lack of factor or co-factor causes the cycle to run slowly.

    I have the MTHFR C677T++ problem but when I tested via methylation panel it turned out that my folate levels were adequate (I was supplementing already) but the active B12 was not enough to keep the cycle spinning correctly causing a lack of THF which depends on methyl-B12.

    You may consider doing a methylation test to see what is going on... otherwise it can get kind of tricky to guess what's the problem.

    cheers
     
  15. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    @Irwin I am heterzygous for MTTR and also for MTHFR 1209C and also BHMTO8. My main symptoms are my energy running out whenever I do physical stuff. I generally function quite well but suffer badly with migraines and headaches. Whenever I react to stuff it comes out in the form of migraines.

    Also I have virtually adrenal insufficiency and Hashimotos so have to take 6mg Prednsiolone daily and 2 grains dessicated but both these gave me a much better quality of life and eliminated many of the symptoms I used to get like severe body aching and very heavy muscles and the most severe vertigo/dizziness.

    I don't tolerate any extra methyl stuff but am ok with 250 mg carnitine fumerate, 200 B2, 5gm x 2 creatiine. I guess this is cos I am homozygeous for COMT.

    I am able to do part time voluntary work and my cognitive function is very good so I am know I am lucky.
     
  16. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Yes, methyl trap, some people say folate trap

    What's this methylation test? I just did 23andme test.
     
  17. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Good, I expect you are doing fine
    I didn't start slow and messed everything, I need to wait till my vacation next month to do some experiment and start slow. First adding b12, adjusting one supplement at time.

    What makes me concerned abou hydroxycoalamin is MTRR impairs its conversion, I don't know if I build up hydrob12 levels gonna make some damage. One thing I'm sure: I feel the effects of hydrob12, just used 2 or 3 times and I was craving for potassium.

    I don't understand why Freddd is so against hydrob12, it is a natural form and found in meat, I'm right?
     
  18. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    It's a blood test where they measure the functional state of the methylation via a number of markers such as GSH/ GSSG (reduced glutathione vs oxidized), SAM/SAH (methionine vs homocysteine), various forms of folate status etc...

    I did it via the European Lab of Nutrients in the Netherlands and they are also in the US. It's quite expensive, around 300 bucks, but it can help to see what's working and what isn't.

    The corrections I have made after the test have helped significantly, but of course they haven't solved the core issues, because it's not all about methylation, that's just one possible puzzle piece.

    cheers
     

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