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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I'll use this post to thank everyone who has responded. I ordered 1mg jarrow mb12 so I can start slow and have a more equal ratio with preference toward the metafolin. We will see what happens. My symptoms are better now.. legs hurt though. I took 5 mg jarrow mb12 and 400mcg metafoliln.. so back to where I was with metafolin before I started.

    I will go slow at least starting with 1 mg mb12... also interesting info, rydra.. thank you. i have not had homocysteine checked in a long time. would be interesting to see where that is and I do take 200mg of p5p a day but I skip days and had probably skipped a week at some point during this quick ramp up..

  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    Taking mb12, Metafolin and p5p your homocysteine is going to be low. Mb12 GENERATES SAM-e and it is a normal and nautral part of the methionine > homocysteine cycle. It is a cycle that goes round and round unless the methylation cycle breaks, and then homocycteine accumulates. It is a marker for a blocked or partially blocked methylation cycle. Taking the mb12, p5p and methylfolatge testing your homocysteine is a waste of money. Your cycle will be working. Don't believe every misunderstanding that comes along. SAM-e is the body's "universal methylator" in the normal course of things. When they test for b12 deficiency they test serum level, uMMA (testing for b12 in the mitochondria) and HCY (mb12 is usally weak point though it can be methylfolate or p5p). Just because Hcy and MMA are "normal" doesn't mean you can't benefit form these things. These tests only show when they are very broken.
  3. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Heya Dr Freddd,

    Been on your protocol for awhile, It has helped quite a bit. However, I haven't mastered it yet.

    Can I ask what is means for your protocol when I get really wired from P5P or B6? both wind me up in a bad way. Should I just avoid them, or am I missing a co-factor or something?

    On another note, I'm finding that I benefit from molybdenum. It seems to be a co-factor for me. Also taurine seems to be a co-factor, however my stomach can;t tolerate the taurine at the moment.

    The B12 deosn't work like it used to. Think the MOly and taurine are in that other pathway I need to stimulate. Any suggestions on experiments I could try to stimulate the moly, taurine pathway?

    Thanks,
    Mark
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    I'm a systems analyst and data geek first class, not a doctor. Getting wired on p5p or b6 is a new one on me. Howver, it may not be what it seems. For many of these things, it's a "last one into the pool get's blamed for it all".

    So far all these items have been ones that have started the "wired" feeling; Group 1 - mb12, Metafolin, SAM-e, Vit D, Zinc, p5p-b6, magnesium; Group 2 - Adb12, l-carnitine fumarate, Alpha lipoic acid, D-ribose, Metafolin; Group 3 - CoQ10. There are no doubt others I didn't experience and haven't been reported yet.

    In group 1 we have the methylation cycle items directly or things that appear to let them work or be absorbed better. In group 2 we have the mitochondria functional group that allow or aid ATP in getting made. Group 3 are items that I don't know where they fit. Metafolin is in both groups 1 and 2.

    So in group 1 a lack of any of these items can prevent methylation and possibly some nervous system funtioning either directly or indirectly. When these are added the "stimulent" effect can happen very quickly. If mb12 lack is most limiting and it is taken then if everything else needed is present it will work. If not, when you take the missing item it starts again until something else limits it. Basically the same applies to group 2 only in reference to ATP produciton. The "wired" effect is the same in any case despite being causes by 2 different biochemical occurances. The nerves need both the group 1 and the group 2 items for different parts of the nerves.

    So here person X is sitting, with a broken system. The internal volume control in the nervous system is turned up all the way trying to catch the signals in the damaged poorly functioning nerves. There is a lot of noise in the circuits, paresthesias and other sensory hallucinations and pain pain pain. You know we can actually be aware of the cosmic rays hitting our brains? In any case all these noise events get interpreted because the gain is turned to max and they are misinterpreted by the system. Then the nurtrients turn on the nerves. It's like the volume control is all the way up on the stereo and the instant it comes on it is at earsplitting loudness since the nerves are now producing much stronger signals that are still going through the turned to max volume control. After a while the internal volume control is lowered to a comfortable level if the high signal level is maintained, and becomes normal.

    The same thing happens in peripheral nerves. When they are turned off, damaged and no signal, there is numbness. When the signal starts flowing again the senstaion is often that of extreme jolting pain that happens for a while until the signal stabilizes and then it comes down to an extreme painful tingling or buzzing. Then this decreases to a mid level tingling or buzzing. Then this declines even more and becomes acutely hypersensitive to sensation awareness. After a while it fades to normal sensation. In some parts of the brain where emotional processing is done, all the stalled things happen all at once with racing thoughts and all sorts of old stuff churning around and getting processed, all sorts of dreams can happen when the dam breaks. One can go through rapid emotional and personality changes, visual, auditory, olfactory etc changes. Perstalsis can start up strong for the first time in years. So every system of the body and brain can go though this startup when it hasn't been working. I've been through it. I am merely describing what I experienced. Healing can be painful in many ways. I don't know how to start things up without starting them up. When they do start up they have certain characteristics. Backlogged healing and emotional processing all happen. Twenty years of none dreaming try to all happen at once. As I've said before, dying would have been easier. However, I am glad to be healed now.
    madietodd likes this.
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Folate content of foods

    I just found this: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114. On this page, you'll find "Folate" in the list of nutrients, and then you can sort foods alphabetically or by amount of folate.

    I'm finding this easier to use than nutritiondata.com, and so far I've found more foods at the usda site.
    L'engle likes this.
  6. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I think the USDA is a superior search tool - although not the easiest to navigate, I think its data has the most integrity and a lot of other nutritional search tools use the USDA as their base/source.

    I posted the same link as above for potassium in the potassium thread (which is interesting as many foods have as much if not much more potassium than bananas) a few days ago.

    If you want to search the nutritional composition of individual foods, enter the food into the search bar http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/list
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Well, this is a strange process. I'm back to where I was before I tried this experiment, physically and mentally. I'm too brain-fogged to post anything useful; I'll go through my notes and look for patterns when I feel better. I haven't changed anything in the past week, and I've been on a slide that whole time.

    Quick recap: I take recommended doses of all critical co-factors, 2000mcg hyrdoxy B12, 2 B-Complex, 4Solgar with food 3x/day, 500mg potassium with food/water 3x/day. I'm eating more carbohydrate now that I'm avoiding high-folate foods. It's been too complicated to figure out the Solgar:food folate ratio while avoiding carbs.

    I wake up nauseous (mild). I have occasional flashes of mental clarity, but less and less often. Overall, I'm worse than when I was on the SMP, eating very very low carb, and not limiting folate foods at all.

    I'm utterly confused by feeling so much better for most of a month, not changing anything, and now being crashy.

    I'm not giving up! I'm just very foggy and unable to generate ideas.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Maddie,

    I've described it as playing 52 pickup with symptoms. They all have gotten stirred around and some partial steps of healing have been taken. Because of the changes you made you are likely no longer deficienct on folate or potassium. The whole carb business can be a complicating factor. You may have reached the limit of what the hydroxcbl can do for you. It doesn't sound like your eithelial tissues are healing and that includes very specifically your stomach. Now the lack of mb12 is quite poossibly the most limiting factor. This is completely predictable with hycbl. That would be the most likely cause for the brainfog now. The problem with figuring the exact ratio is that nobody can. That is asking the wrong question. It's a pragmatic thing more liek when and how much do I need to take to beat back the deficiency symptoms and that can change every day based on exercise, water retention, exact diet and so on. It's more a matter of adjusting it up as needed and letting it come down if it seems like you are getting ample until not enough, then up. You can never catch up to it by figuring it out.

    The way I described it some years ago was having "completed one round to the new limits".
  9. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Thanks, Freddd.

    So from your POV, the most likely culprit is that the hydroxy B12 can't, um, stimulate production of (?) enough mb12? And so direct supplementation is needed? Because other things have come up to speed, and mb12 is now the limiting factor, right?

    Because that's been one of my little sub-tests - can I accomplish this with just the hydroxy, avoiding the whole overdrive issue.

    So I could test this by adding, say, 1 b12 Infusion today, + 1 additional per day until I get a response. Or until I'm up to 4, after which I might as well test a single Jarrow 5mg, and go on from there.

    Keep everything else constant, and keep an eye on potassium in case I need to up it?

    Thanks,

    Madie

    ps I just took my 2 drops of hydroxy and my brain cleared. So you're on the right track for sure about the B12. But it's not working for very long any more. So what do you think would happen if I doubled the hydroxy, say split am/pm? Rich, if you're around, you got any thoughts about this?
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Let me sum up what I think happened, and I think you have made excellent progress actually. You started methylation. You had the potassium drop showing it's being used for cell formation. You then had the induced low folate as the next limiting factor. You have dealt with that too. Both of these will need further adjustment as you make additional changes, but you know what they are and how to recognize them now. There is a learning curve to all this. Unfortuanately it is neither as simple nor routine as one might hope. It does requre some learning to recognize the changes in our bodies and recognizing how to deal with them.

    So here you are at the forefront of a hybrid protocol, starting on SMP, changing a few items towards the active, having a sucessful startup of methylation and now ready for the next step. Instead of just substituting the mb12 for the hydroxy, I would suggest trying to do it as more of a crossover taper situation. Add 1/4 of one of the b12 infusion to the hycbl you are already taking. It will be diluted in the mix and MAYBE won't hit as hard. You might even take that quarter and take it as 1/8 followed by another 1/8 some hours later. I think that the 125mcg of mb12 at each of Am and Pm doses will make a lot more difference, with maybe 15-40mcg getting absorbed. Give that some days to settle, deal with the potassium and or folate changes and then step it up again. This way it won't be as sudden or hopefully as strong a change.
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    OK, Freddd it's a plan.

    I already took 2 hydroxy today. I'll take 1/8 of an MB12 Infusion tonight. Tomorrow I'll split the hydroxy dose am/pm, and take those doses with 1/8 B12 Infusion.

    And then we'll see.....
    L'engle likes this.
  12. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I'm tagging my experience onto here because it is somewhat similar to Madie's. I'm trying the high amount of metafolin over the next couple of days (12800mcg at 4X 3200mcg 4 times a day). I'll let people know if I have any improvement! So far in the day I have increased twitching, that I get on increased methyl b12, metafolin or SAMe. I haven't figured out what it means yet, or whether I have neurological damage that needs healing.

    I am taking 20-45mg of methyl b12 daily as well, by the way. I have never taken metafolin without methyl b12.
  13. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Hi Maddie,

    I have found potassium needs could possibly vary throughout the woman's cycle days, especially if heavy periods are a symptom. I have read that heavy periods can be a symptom of B12 deficiency alone, so imagine how it can be if the whole methylation cycle and turnover of new cells cycle are both slowed down by low folate induced problems of all the rest. I am not sure how high I might need to go on potassium yet. I am trying to come up with a useful range.

    I, too, am titrating up my metafolin. I have found that I can't take metafolin without b12, and can't take b12 without metafolin, AND I can't run out of any of it, at all, ever.
  14. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I took 3 doses (800 mcg each) of Solgar metafolin on Sunday, and got slammed with a severe agitated depression by Sunday night. Felt like a wreck all day yesterday. After 2 acupuncture treatments and several doses of TD glutathione I feel some improvement, but not completely cleared yet. HIGH DOSES OF METAFOLIN ARE NOT anything I will repeat again.

    Just a warning to anyone who is experimenting with the high doses. They don't work well for everyone. I am living proof.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dreambirdie,

    Well there are certainly a few clues here. First a question, did you have evidence of paradoxical or otherwise induced folate deficiency as a reason to take a whole lot more? In any case you appear to have demostrated very convincingly just how folate deficient you are. That glutathione appears to reverse Metafolin in a person who finds glutathione helpful is demonstrated, and even a reason it is helpful, it turns off folate effectiveness. I would caution against lots of Metafolin without methylb12 as that can possibly cause neurological problems by having a lot of active folate present without the necessary mb12 in the CSF/CNS. Also, that glutathione decreases the effects of Metafolin appears to go along the hazards of glutathione, that it quiets some symptoms by removing active b12 and folate from the nervous system and body and then the effects of the methylfolate are reversed and continued could cause additional neurological damage. You do appear to be living proof of that. I don't know if that was what you thought you were demonstrating but you have answered some questions I had about glutathione. So now the question comes up. In b12 deficiency there is a very specific to b12 (and maybe folate) symptom of nutrient specifc anorexia. This seems to be like the way some people become almost addicted to foods to which they have allergies. We have people who develope a distastes for meat and other b12 containing foods. Would the same apply to folate containing foods or maybe in the case of somebody with paradoxical folate deficiency, a preference for active folate blocking folate containing foods? Does a person develop a preference for things that quiets their nervous system, even destructively. Is that part of the nutrient specific anorexia? Lots of questions, so few answers.

    As somebody who has been reading along perhaps you saw where I mentioned about the emotional processing that appears to not get done for a long time, decades of non-functioning nervous system for me, and that all of a sudden all the pent up stuff starts hitting at once. It will make for potentially volitile moods as the nervous sytem starts working. I think you have demonstrated that effect as well. Perhaps the area of the problem that you will help clear up is how to restart ATP production and neurological functioning with all the excitatory responses that come along with that and all the catchup processing that occurs. I used the assumption that these were the steps and consequences of getting things working and that they to would run their course and be finished. I assumed that getting a damaged nervous system rebooted and functioning was going to be a messy ride and wasn't surprised when it was. It worked. So the question for you is how you can get your systems going again without going through the sequence that occurs as it starts working again. I had flattened affect for 20+ years. I had churning emotions and sudenly active processing of decades of blocked processes. It wasn't pleasant.

    In any case very interesting demonstration. It fits in very well. And what is learned is all in the interpretation.
  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hey Freddd--

    I already know what your response is going to be, before you even post it, and I am just not interested in it anymore.

    So please don't give me feedback, unless I specifically ask you for it. I would appreciate that. Thanks.
  17. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Dreambirdie
    No response needed to me -
    Potassium has helped me with some symptoms like you mentioned
    A sodium potassium bicarb was given me by my VERY MCS friend to try, and that could possibly be a tolerable form.

    Not sure if you have already tried this, as I know you have been doing this for a while.

    I wish you the best on working the smaller doses. I have been worried about metals and have just not been sure when to look into it.

    Again, no response required.
    thanks for offering your experience with metals. It is something to consider
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    If I remark on various interpretations and theories presented I will try to remember not to address it to you, but I make no guarantees. I would have to say that your reponses were also a forgone conclusion based on your previous patterns. I would have been very surprised if you were to interpret anything I suggest as a step towards recovery or a clue to healing. I would agree, you clearly have not "been interested in it". Consider that whatever I do in the future is for the edification of others. Have fun.
  19. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi RD--I take potassium regularly. There's 200 mg in every pack of Emergen-C, and I drink btwn 6-10 packs/day. It does help some of my symptoms, but if I am toxic from heavy metal mobilization, then the only thing that helps is TD-glutathione. It's my saving grace.
  20. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Dreambirdie said:
    "I took 3 doses (800 mcg each) of Solgar metafolin on Sunday, and got slammed with a severe agitated depression by Sunday night. Felt like a wreck all day yesterday. After 2 acupuncture treatments and several doses of TD glutathione I feel some improvement, but not completely cleared yet. HIGH DOSES OF METAFOLIN ARE NOT anything I will repeat again."

    This isn't actually a very high dose of metafolin, from my POV. Were you taking the metafolin because you've figured out you have folate issues? Or as part of a test for paradoxical folate deficiency? Had you been taking folic acid, and you switched? Because this just seems like an extreme reaction, if you were doing it in the context of a whole protocol.


    Freddd, this sounds on first reading like you're saying that some of us don't do our emotional work for perhaps decades, and then it crashes in on us when the CNS starts working. As I read it again, I see other possibilities, but I'm interested in what you have to say.

    I've commented on this thread about getting "wild emotions" that are fixed with a 500mg dose of potassium. This is distinctly not old stuff surfacing. It's simply a wild emotion (or two), without content. It tries to attach to a familiar story, but if I don't let it, I can watch it look for other stories to give it validity.

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