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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Freddd and /or Rich,
    I started taking Folinic Acid again about 5 days ago. On day 4, the skin on my nose started peeling off (top and sides). I have experienced this before after adding Folinic Acid ( and at other times). Could this be due to new cell formation ? Or is this an example of a paradoxical folate deficiency ?
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    As regards glutathione, it takes more than a week for it's effects to fade fromn the last dose. It can take two weeks for you to know what it is like without it and for the situation to stabilize. The biological system has a critical action time for responsoing to various things. Without taking that into account moving too quickly from one state to another sets up oscillations that are unstable. For a full cycle of paradoxical folate defieincy for me then from the time I can notice onset, about 1-2 days in, and then correct it, it can be another week until the corrective actions are taking effect. And even that isn't the full cycle. I have another some weeks until the visible damage is corrected. So before, the chelilitis would be partially healed and then worsen again without ever getting fully healed. It takes a couple of weeks until the metafolin can take full effect following the glutathione. So any faster changing of states doesn't allow it to play out.

    I'm working right now on those symptoms lists and hope to get them up for preliminary discussion later today.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Drex,

    This might be paradoxical folate deficiency onset sign for you. Picture this happening in your intestines. That is about the same lag time as for IBS to come on for me and the cheilitis to progress to open burning sores. When the folate deficiency hits, cells don't reproduce as quickly. In really extreme cases you can feel and even see groves in the big toe toe nail. The problem there is that whaen it comes up enough to see it's more thaqn a month old. However, you can often see histroy of the worst epidoses over 4 months on your toe nails. I guess the big question, what other symptoms do you have that time with this? I have a pretty predictable sequence, first a change in feeling on the partially healed cheilitis, then an increasing to burning pain and open sores about the same tiome as IBS kicks uo. I also have edema start about day two and I start putting on water, say 5 to 10 pounds in 3-4 days. Also, more red color in my urine form the large amount of b12 I take. Then when I turn it around, immediately less red and more uine and water starts pouring off and potassium need increases, the a healing of the cheilitis starts and then IBS goes away and cheilitis continues healing. This same pattern repeats over and over. SO ffain other parts of the pattern. Patterns are far more reliable than single items.

    Of course there is no reason for skin to peel each time folinic comes on if it isn't affecting cell formation. Especially changing from methylfolate only. ALso, consider that it may take a few days for the folinic to add to the veggie folate until the point where it can block. So the timing is right.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Madie,

    There are variations on this . I've played wirth everythong from 30 minutes before and with the meal, and 5 minutes before and with the meal.. For me at least the 5 minutes before and with the meal was the most effective method. THe only way to compete with the veggie folate is to take the Metafolin at the same time as far as I can tell, and 5 minuetes before seems to add to that a little.
  5. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Robin - Full Active Protocol (Freddd's protocol, non-clinical name!)

    @ madie - titrating up on potassium gluconate, at 400 now, steady gut, consuming NO ADDITIONAL FOLIC ACID
  6. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    I seem to be the paradox to the paradox. My timeline for the last two weeks or so goes like this. I was taking Hb12 and methylmateB, from which I have had pretty good results, and ran out, so I decided to take the Jarrow mb12 and Solgar Metafolin I had on hand. Within in 4 days I felt awful. I know this could be potassium, but i was taking potassium. I developed bad ibs symptoms (as I have everytime I have tried to take Mb12 and Solgar Metafolin, which leads me to suspect it may be the sugar alcohols used to sweeten both. I have had issues with sorbitol in the past) I also developed cheilitis at the left corner of my mouth, as well as muscle pain. After stopping both, and going back to hb12 and methylmate and folinic, the cheilitis went away, the other stuff is going away, and 4 days after adding the folinic, my nose peeled. I have ordered a methylfolate w/ no sweeteners to see if it makes a difference.
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Update

    I've been playing around with this folate issue for 4 weeks now, and all I can say is that this is not a linear process.

    I take supplements in 3 areas:
    adrenal support (drenamine, drenatrophin PMG, Adrenal Response)
    methylation (all of Freddd's co-factors, hydroxy B12, lecithin, neither of the 'active' B12s)
    sleep support (L-theanine, L-tryptophan, benedryl)

    So far, I'm unable to replicate the dramatic return of mental function and increased energy that I experience when I eat only meat, fish, eggs, and dairy, when I add any combination of Solgar and natural folates. But this isn't as clear as it sounds, because a poor night's sleep also ruins brain function and energy. And when my brain isn't working well, I get sloppy about my diet.

    However, my mistakes have given me some information. I forgot one of my (one-drop) doses of B12 yesterday, and I couldn't believe how tired and spacey I got. I only realized this morning what I'd done. So that's doing something.

    This amount of potassium (5 caps 3x/day) is definitely helping sleep. It doesn't guarantee a night with a 5 to 7 hour stretch of unbroken sleep, but when I forget a dose, I wake up at least every 2-3 hours (like I used to).

    When I was on all of the adrenal and sleep supports but on the SMP, I couldn't tolerate any caffeine at all. Even 1st thing in the morning, it would keep me waking up all night. I can now handle a cup of tea morning and early afternoon, and it doesn't affect my sleep. [For those who might worry, I don't do this regularly; I'm aware of adrenal issues.]

    About a year ago, peristalsis slowed way way down, and I kicked a lot at night. Taking magnesium to bowel tolerance fixed both problems. Since I've added 3,000mg buffered C, I've stopped the magnesium in order to keep the same level of bowel function. So far, the kicking hasn't resumed. I'm playing with this short-term by not taking any magnesium at all, to see what happens.

    Has anybody else been experimenting, and noticed any new patterns?

    EDIT: Turns out I can't handle even 1000mg of the buffered C. So magnesium is back in the mix.
  8. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    I get burning red rashes on my tongue with Jarrow methyl b12 ,too. The skin on my face is constantly peeling off, but I have never taken folinic acid .
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Drex,

    I seem to be the paradox to the paradox.

    Actually, your description has brought to the forefront something that has been chasing around in my brain for a while, the nature of the induced folate deficiency by mb12. This has to do with the question of the amount

    Play along and picture the situation. This might have everything to do the limited conversion of folic acid or folinic acid to methylfolate. Let' say that person AAA can convert 200mcg a day of non-active folic or folinic to methylfolate. With 10mcg of mb12 available via conversion from hycbl, methylation goes along, semi broken (partially blocked) and some things are handled via internal triage. A few cells get started with the limited mb12 and there is enough folate for those limited cells, and those things keep puttering along, unlike those people like me who have less internal folate conversion and have continual IBS, cheilitis and other problems. Then Mb12 is taken and some methylfolate. A gazllion cells all get started and need even larger quantities of methylfolate so that the amount of methylfolate that could get it started isn't enough to maintain that activity, leaving cells broken off part way through and the damage shows up, the peeling skin, the cheilitis, the IBS.

    This begins to make sense of the ragged area beteen the two different methods.

    This also expands the definition of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency to include an induced methylfolate deficiency by mb12 and low dose methylfolate. No wonder the prescription forms of Metafolin have such higher doses. It makes sense. So with Metanx we have maybe 25mcg of absorbed mb12 to 5mg of metafolin. Cerefolin is similar. Deplin comes in 7.5 and 15mg doses.


    With the active b12 protocol there was a jumping in with both feet, methylation started in a day and low potassium in 3 days. The startup was intense but the problems were generally limited to low potassium and a lot of intensity with symptoms shifting around. They did not follow the expereince or logic of the SMP startup.

    With the Simplified methylation protocol, there were a multitude of various problems that from somebody coming to it from the active b12 protocol experience seemed "weird". There were not simply a "light" version of active b12 startup, they were very different. The differences are visible to the naked eye. They didn't follow the same experience or logic of the ABP startup.


    I have repeated over and over that the experience of each the SMP and ABP did not predict the other response. I think that anybody that looked at both would agree with that. There were two distinctively different things going on.

    Needless to say, applying the methods of the SMP to the ABP exposed an entirely different set of problems that neither was adequate preparation for the hybrid approach.

    What now that has been exposed is this triggering of methyaltion startup with ABP, not slow, more a binary ON/OFF effect which I mentioned before. When it STARTS, and it dosesn't start slowly, it needs enough methylfolate and everything else required for it to run through the initial startup without stopping in it's midst, stalled for lack of something, right in the middle of total unbalance.

    This brought up the question that has been asked by many, what is the correct BALANCE amongst the components, and I haven't had an answer. I can see now where the problems are cropping up, epitomized by Drex in this post, and many thanks to Drex for being able to state it so clearly. No blatent PFD while on hycbl and folinic, some kind of balance there. In some people though PFD starts anyway. Then starting mb12 with a relatviely small amount of Metafolin, and running into PFD. It would appear an induced deficiency in this as the need created by the mb12 outruns the folate available, an out of balance situation.

    Further, previously I and other have noticed the increased problems in switching from SMP to ABP and that it is not straight forward, at least not the way people are trying it.

    I am going to copy this to it's own thread as I feel a discussion of these ideas needs to be done separately from the issues in this thread.


    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ency-Metafolin-and-Balanc&p=238907#post238907
  10. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Topaz,

    I don't know what to make of this. I get my data from http://nutritiondata.self.com/. According to them 100g of boiled, drained cauliflower has 44g of folates, and 100g raw has 57. This is a substantial loss, but not as much as the article claims.

    Madie

  12. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I wouldnt take mega doses of anything - it sure makes me nervous! I just wanted to alert you to the fact that angular chielitis can be caused by insufficient vitamin E. I had it for the first and only time n my life when I ran out of Vitamin E. I have taken inactive B100 my whole life and only recently Thorne Basic B 2x/day. Also took 1g/E day my whole life. Never got angular chielitis until I ran out of E. Looked it up and says it can be caused by insufficient E.

    Just be aware of the possibilities before you take high doses of anything. I think it is safer to take a little of everything myself.

    Rydra
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Often it is in the cook water. I steam the chard and really like to use minimal water so it is almost all broth cooked pout of the chard, very tasty. Also causes almost instant paradoxical folate deficiency.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,

    A person should be on E doing this. If the only thing being varied is the folate and cheilits can be made to come and go by variety of folate, then it is the folate, not E. Especially in only a few days. I have never heard of anybody being able to have an E deficiency quickly except by blocking it's absorbtion with iron. However, a person can test this hypothesis by getting rid of the cheilitis and doing a stop of E until cheilitis comes on and then make it go away with E. It may not happen at all in a few days so a rtrial would be interesting.
  15. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I have never had cheilitis. Is this s folate issue? I have more MS like symptoms esp now after the Mb12 (15 mg) sublingual and metafolin (2400mcg) experiment. Still going on days later. Any explantion, Freddd? I am quite frightened at this point and really debating using some glutathione despite what you've said about it causing numbing of nerves from bascially as I understand halting any "good" Mb12 and folate might be doing in cells.

    I am, wondering if this is causing permanant nerve damage if I let this continue on. My spine is literally vibrating at times.

    These symptoms I had in mold contaminated house.. dont think this new house has gone that bad if at all so quickl after one year. I see no signs of water damage whereas in my mold contaminated house at least there was a crack in a long kneewall seam of a shower that was an indicator though we did not realize it. I am being bombarded with "moldy" people and places but not more than I was when I was doing better here..

    I have to move back in the thread to see when I reportd stopping Mb12 and folate to see how long Ive been off now. Ill come back and edit that info in.

    Its not getting better at all. I did take 400mcg metafolin last night and 5mg Mb12 and my anxiety went up with potentially an adrenalione surge.. I dont think we can or I am not at least going to throw out yasko's thoughts, experience, science on comt++ folks and methyl donors either. It really ticks me off when people throw out an entire protocol based on disagreeing on some aspects of it esp without thoroughly researching it..Just saying. I think you should know what you are criticizing. No one is all wrong or all right, at least form my experience.

    edit: I stoppd the night of the 5th of Feb. TOday is the 9th. I have a 5 mg Mb12 in my mouth and an taking 400mcg of metafolin again as I did last night. This insae creepy nerve feeling along with gait issues has got to stop.

    Do you have advice on how to work through this? No glut as of yet.. and its been weeks off that and a week or more with no protein bars (whey though not sure how effective in helping form glut with cheap protein bar whey).

    Robin
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    From what we are discussing in other threads at the moment, I suggest you ramp up the methylfolate dose. I believe you need at least a 1:1 ratio, and preferably even more folate than b12. I now take 7.5mg methylfolate with my 5mg mb12. Either there is a specific ratio we need, or a minimum threshold amount of folate is needed. 7.5mg is the small deplin dose. 400mcg folate with all that mb12 is just not going to cut it. See Freddds thread on balance.
  17. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    I was taking a lot MORE metafolin (thank you doctor's prescription!), and had other problems, and was actually afraid to drop down below 10 mg, but I am hovering around 10 mg for now. I had some buzzing issues, but they have calmed.


    Are you able to take anything like clays (kaolin? redmond earth? can't remember) as mold/gut/mycotoxin removers? Some folks take cholestyramine or even Welchol (both prescriptions) at 4X a day for three weeks - pretty rough, but I noticed a difference the first day I took CSM while in Moldville. Moldville seems to have been cleaned up, and many of those symptoms have cleared, but I never got all better. A lot of my mold bloodwork is still bad.
  18. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Gang -

    Does anybody know what it means that I can't tolerate even 1000mg vitamin C, buffered or not [=> insane gas, bloat]? Since it's part of the protocol, I'm hoping this means I don't need it. If I do still need it, is the buffering a coating on the pill? Meaning, is it OK to cut the pills up?

    Thanks.
  19. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I think if you are frightened you should stop using anything that frightens you. Your body may be telling you that what you are doing is dangerous FOR YOU. For instance if you have a low potassium situation and you persist it can kill you very fast. That is why I think you should take things slow and moderate. Do not underestimate the value of a simple CBC with chem (which is cheap and can be gotton via LABCORP) so you can test your electrolytes frequently even if a doctor wont authorize it. I wanted to spend my money on fancy tests but Life Extension ran their yearly blood test sale and went on and on about the value of a simple overall blood screening so I decided to run it even though I'd had those run before and never found anything. Things change! Mine detected hyperthyroid. Yours could detect low potassium.

    Well, anyway, IMHO dont let anyone else tell you to do something that makes you feel bad. No one knows your body like you.

    That said, I wouldnt take glutathione personally. I have taken milk thistle (in a small dose 2 out of a 6/day of a powdered milk thistle from eclectic institute - not concentrated or anything) to no ill effect. The only thing it did for me is get rid of the inflammatoy cytokines caused by insufficient sleep (and I felt it in my knees - it takes away joint pain caused by lack of sleep). I felt it provided a bit of protection for my liver. However I have since read that milk thistle, even in dietary doses (whatever that means because no one I know sprinkles it on their food) increases absorption of your stomach contents significantly - so do NOT take it with medications - it is like taking grapefruit juice. Well, anyway, that form of cysteine did not destroy MY methylation - my homocysteine on it was 6.1 - PERFECT.

    I believe that when you start taking methylation supplements you will almost certainly RAISE your homocysteine (neurotoxin) temporarily (which could cause ms-symptoms or even stroke or heart attack). When I started taking it I looked at the whole methyl cycle (the biochemical pathway) and took EVERYTHING on it at once - in particular an extra 50mg P5P. P5P is the only nutrient in the cycle that can lower your homocysteine immediately. I know that other supplements (TMG, mfolate, mB12) are known to lower homocysteine...but they simply CYCLE it back into homocysteine! If YOU have high homocysteine to start, *I* think it would be safest to drain it away with P5P and THEN start getting the methyl cycle working. Looking at the biochemical pathway of the methyl cycle *I* would *never* start with SAMe as it is only 1 step away from homocysteine, which may already be high. Depending on your genes and your prior nutritional state, it may be VERY high. So maybe that is what you feel. I would drain it away before I started raising my doses of the other recycle supplements. That is just my opinion.

    Remember I took B100 all my life - that is 100mg B6 per day - and it kept my homocysteine from getting higher than 12 (which is bad, b.ut many people have theirs as high as 50 or 70). I believe that is why I never had startup symptoms when taking the active protocol. I also believe that the reason I DID have startup sysmptoms when picking and choosing and starting up the second time after I quit most everything due to nausea from too many pills that my homocysteine probably went above 12 and was the cause of the startup symptoms. I did not test, I just went slow, starting with only Thorne Basic B 2x/day, nothing else (but when I experienced symptoms of startup I started the P5P and also potassium). I do not know how long P5P takes to lower homocysteine - it would depend on how high someone's is, how much P5P they take, probably also what else they take with it (some things UP/DOWN reg different genes), and also on kidney functionality because it gets peed out and if you have poor kidney filtration you will indeed have high homocysteine. If you have poor kidney filtration you should not be experimenting w/o a doctor helping you.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Cut back on the C, maybe 250mg 4x per day. Pepleo have gas sometimes from C at some level or other. If you take more and step it up slowly the body adjusts. It just means you don't get much C. Cut them up is just fine.

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