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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    No, I don't. I think that as proper functioning of the body is restored the body will start handling these things in an orderly fashion.

    When a person starts mb12 and metafolin (other combinations may also work but this is most predictable with methylation starting almost immediately) the first thing induced in almost 100% will be low potassium. However, starting potentially 5 minutes after neurological changes can start as the nervous systfem starts working more and in 10 minuted ATP generation rises. These are effects that are signposts to healing, not something to get rid of. Calling low potassium "detox" is dangerous as it won't be treated correctly. The next most probable thing called "detox" is either induced folate deficiency or paradoxical folate deficiency, percentage unknown but probably in excess of 20%. Both can happen at same time or in sequence. Following those are any of a dozen or more induced deficiencies and possibly even an induced SubAcute Combined Degeneration. After all these are worked through generally healoing is going on at a good clip.
  2. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Interesting Madie, also about the Hb12 with the metafolin.. thank you. Im so skiddish with the potassium..

    Robin

  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rosebud -

    I've got Twinlab "potassium caps" - citrate - and then I recently found caplets at Sam's Club - gluconate. I haven't researched it at all; I think the B12 basics list says any kind of potassium will do.

    Madie
  4. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    I am thinking I am the perfect storm for the B12 deficiency (MTR, MTRR, vegetarian, MTHFr though hetero, mold and lyme exposures after nursing my children for 7 years straight.. im assuming something there is an issue)..

    Ive read the book, Could It Be B12, and actually saw your posts on the forum related to that book some time back. I dont have a copy now since its back in my mold contaminated house and most likely a landfill if my husband has already thrown it out so cant refer.

    Neubrander (not author of he book, autism MD) says something about some people (his special interest being autism) have B12 dependency not definciency. If I am remembering correctly he is saying that deficiency is generally easy to take care of and I think in the book I mention above, I got the same idea from it as well.. eventually you are taking shots once a month but she may have daily sublinguals?

    What do you think is going on here? How long does it take to restore a deficiency and then are we really talking about a dependency based on genetics? Im assuming a dependency would result in a deficiency that continually needs replinishing? Do you think you will ever need less b12 and metafolin? IS it a folic acid defienciency as well or dependency?

    I was not sick until something pulled the plug for me. and this was in my 40s. My father
    s family all died young of heart attacks and strokes. Bad backs, degenerative disks, multiple surgeries, chronic pain from back issues and I am thinking MTHFr and MTR, MTRR as well potentially. My dad had a massive stroke living in a highly mold contaminated house. His b12 levels are 400 which the MDs are saying is fine.. its above the cut off.. I am wondering if this is a huge issue for him.

    I have the CFS.. my sister had the cfs (long story, better) no one else. They all died young of heart attacks and strokes. I have the high serum FA adn B12.. at least my dad doesnt. Is there a reason to all of that?

    Neubrander focuses on the brain (and I'll assume the spinal cord is connected). He uses concentrated Mb12 subcutaneous, his special concentration that only a few compounding pharms know how to make. It lasts with continual dosing for about 3 days I think. He though uses folinic, or did as per article I read. Some sucesses and I am sure some failures.

    I think his specific slow release every 3 days shots are interesting. The concentration is set so that the b12 stays subcutaneous so more of a true slow time release.

    AS for detox of metals, at least.. yasko does see heavy metals flowing out and charts this with individual patients. I know this helps only a few like everything else. Her focus is not on repair as much, I think.. you seem to focus more on repair and restoration via methylation, which (pardon my ignorance) is how b12 works?? It works through the methylation process? which repairs dna, etc.

    Yesterday was really a bad day emotionally, mentally, physically as far as sense of being very off in my head in several ways.. including a feeling of light headedness and passing out.. pulse was low and afraid to use more potassium (then the 600mg total) and this am I woke up with my entire back almost vibrating and to lesser degrees and in order my shoulders then legs. Getting up and moving helped and then I went on with the 5mg Mb12 with 800mcg metafolin three times a day with potassium pills scattered in there.. upto 600mg.. I know.. I have to slowly experiment with that.

    My urine though is not a hint of red, rather more clear than usual.

    Thank you,

    Robin



  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    The recommended daily intake of folates is 400mcg (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/folate/). Can anybody explain why we need these high amounts
    (a) when starting these methylation protocols, and
    (b) once our bodies have adjusted to the B12 support we're providing?
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    1 - 400mcg is an artificaially low level to prevent people from taking a bunch of folate without b12 to prevent induced neurological damage trying to heal the blood without using b12.,

    2- it assumes that most people are getting considerable folate in their food which assumes they don't have paradocical folate deficiency from vegetable folate


    3 - It is dependent upon research on folic acid that idicates that even in the best converters they can only convert twice that daily and that unconverted folic acid accumulates and be either a) toxic or b) possibly blocking acitve folate; both according to old research

    4 - At startup when healing starts up big more folate is needed to maintain that. If one has to overcome paradoxical folate deficiency even more is needed.

    The Deplin research came out with doses of 7.5 and 15mg to be effective. Perhaps they are dealing with a lot of people with paradoxical folate deficiency or maybe, since they were dealing with depression, that is needed to get through the BBB.
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yep, and this study found only the 15mg dose to be effective at augmenting antidepressants, in treatment resistant depression:

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/739246
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Thank you, Freddd.

    So the RDA isn't how much we should be ingesting total? It's how much we're supposed to need to supplement?

    Let's say normal adults need XYZ amount of converted folate per day. Let's say I've got all the wrong genes, and can't convert folic or folinic acid. So I need XYZ amount of metafolin, plus additional metafolin to displace (?) the folates in the food I eat.

    Are there any 'rules of thumb' to figure out the XYZ amount, and the amount of metafolin needed to balance folate intake?



    I just found this:

    "Medical studies have proven that the conversion of folic acid into active folate is frequently disrupted by genetic factors, age-related problems and metabolic obstacles.1,2

    * Up to 40% of adults are affected by genetic flaws that limit the amount of folic acid converted to the active folate that neutralizes homocysteine.3-10
    * Transformation of folic acid into active folate falls off after ingesting 200 mcg, and is saturated at doses in the region of 400 mcg. Higher doses result in unabsorbed folic acid circulating in the blood, and we do not know the long term biological effects of a lifetime of exposure to unmodified synthetic folate.1,10"

    It's from an ad for methylfolate (http://hsfighters.bioactivhealth.com/folate_not_folicacid.htm?gclid=CMOZtsG4ha4CFacQNAodZ2Mg3w), but it gives references to studies.
  9. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I dont know where to posts this so posting here anyway. I am where I was: 3-5mg jarrow mb12 (do i need to spread this out during the day or can I take all at once?), 3-800mcg metafolin. No folinic, glut, etc.

    I am getting the creepy nervey feeling.. like frayed wires going off like little sparkly sprinkler fireworks. Back mostly, spine, upper back, neck. This happened before the Mb12 metafolin only experiment. I have been taking Mb12 at 10 mg and metafolin at 400mcg for some time now, though.. with folinic on and off board. Is this b12 related, folate related? potassium? (lyme, mold toxins, and hyperimmune reactions to fungus, foods, whatever not ruling out yet)

    As stated before glutathione would make this gp away but eventually can cause this as well. I supposed detox but questioning now becasue of Freddd's insights..

    I am still having muscle weakness and fatigue of muscles.. i dont think that I ma fatigued as much as my muscles are. How much carnitine? I am taking 500mg L-carnitine but not Freddd's favorite.. will order that and try.

    I am slowly adding more potassium. At least 600 mg a day.

    Thank you,

    Robin
  10. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    From the same site:

    Some people try to overcome the obstacles to absorbing and transforming folic acid by taking doses of 800 mcgs, or higher. Studies show transformation of folic acid into active folate falls off after ingesting 200 mcg, and is saturated at doses in the region of 400 mcg. And when folic acid fails to be converted to active folate it remains in the bloodstream for days, even weeks at a time.1,10 Medical researchers are now investigating whether "unused" folic acid in the bloodstream actually blocks the absorption of folate from natural sources such as green leafy vegetables.



  11. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Robin Soul - I too nursed many children for many years. I have a single C677T mutation.
    I did the methylfolate-only protocol as prescribed by my doc, and she know only what was in the package insert, nothing more. For those months, I was in a tired tired fog. That protocol was dangerous for me. THe FAP suits me much better. I need higher doses of Mb12, and Mfolate (WITH POTASSIUM) for now, but it is so good to feel warm bath water on my toes, to be able to sing in tune and on the beat again. I have a funny spot on my left leg that feels warm and tight, and my left leg has always been my worst. I broke a toe on that foot, perhaps due to foot drop a couple of years ago. I will probably L-carnitine fumarate soon as I think I am doing pretty well with R_ALA.


    I too had a moldy home, and then before that I had some mercury taken out of my teeth a few years ago.

    I even had two vaccines lately trying to screen for immune deficiency, and was very twitchy after those.....not a good response.

    @ Madie - I am looking for a potassium that won't upset my stomach, and was wondering if gluconate or citrate does that.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    So the RDA isn't how much we should be ingesting total? It's how much we're supposed to need to supplement?


    No, wrong conclusion. That is the maximum amount they guessed that a person could take without b12 (mb12 specifically by effect) before damage to the nervous system would set in because of too much folate activity in the body.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    I broke a toe some years back, foot drop? walking into furniture? who knowa, I didn't at the time. I found out at a massage when the therpist was working on my foot and I went thr ough the ceiling. I couldn't feel it except with manipualation.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    whether "unused" folic acid in the bloodstream actually blocks the absorption of folate

    Who could ever have guessed that? ANd for th 20% who can't convert it at all, YIKES. As we all know now. Thankyou for the reference.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    I dont know where to posts this so posting here anyway. I am where I was: 3-5mg jarrow mb12 (do i need to spread this out during the day or can I take all at once?), 3-800mcg metafolin. No folinic, glut, etc.

    Try the Jarrow both ways and see which works better for you. The Metafolin needs to in 3 doses geb-nerally for best effect.


    like frayed wires going off like little sparkly sprinkler fireworks

    Now that sounds famiiliar. Something like my nerves felt as they began to recover function coming back from numbness.
  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I may have missed the point of this as I am not going back and rereading material at the moment, I am too busy. An RDA is not about maximum dosage. For most things an RDA is way below maximum safe dosage, though not for many minerals and vitamins like B6. Only a small multiple of the RDA for B6 or minerals can be toxic.

    To my understanding an RDA is an amount sufficient that 95% of normal healthy people will not show signs of deficiency in the long term. It represents a minimum, not a maximum. There are always some who require much more, though the way this is defined those few indiduals are less than one in twenty. In particular though an RDA is not an optimum. There is almost no research on optimum levels - how do you measure optimum? You can define a deficiency state, but how do you define optimum health?

    Bye, Alex
  17. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    I am newly delving into this.. what's FAP?

    o you are doing well with metafolin, mb12 and potassium? What doses are you at?

    I do wonder about the nursing for 7 years plus being a vegetarian wiht MTR, MTRR, MTHFr issues. Though hetero for except MTR which is ++.

    MTR/MTRR (methionine synthase/ methionine synthase reductase):
    These two gene products work together to regenerate and utilize B12 for the critical long way around the methylation pathway, helping to convert homocysteine to methionine. High levels of homocysteine have been implicated as risk factors in a number of health conditions including heart disease as well as Alzheimers disease. As is the case for COMT and VDR Bsm/Taq, the MTR and MTRR composite status is also important. Mutations in MTR can increase the activity of this gene product so that it leads to a greater need for B12 as the enzyme is using up B12 at a faster rate. The MTRR helps to recycle B12 for use by the MTR. Mutations that affect its activity would also suggest a greater need for B12

    Good grief.. I also have 4 MTHFR +- snps and a boatload of BHMTs which makes me wonder about that short pathway and if its important to address as well as the ammonia issues with bh4.

    I really get frustrated with yasko as much as I am grateful for her.. so complicated.

    Robin

  18. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Thanks, Freddd..

    Im wondering though if this is nerves coming back on line (in a good way) then why was this a constant issue in my mold contaminated house and was relieved by lipo glut and then got better (less and less) when I left and seems to only now come on if I use glutathione which also takes it away or now with the mb12, metafolin?

    I was taking Hb12 and Mb12 with small amounts of metafolin and folinic (actually probably more folinic_ whiel in mold hosue and this was a constant problem, which I later assumed was a reaction to the mold toxins accumulating in my body (which they were as per a urine test, very high amounts of trichocenenes).

    I didnt start like normal lyme or cfs I dont think.. its the mold toxins and probably this b12 issue.
    My symtpoms were neurological. They got lymie (joints) after months of abx which also blew my gut out. The gait issues, numb feet (not every day, but on and off), the awful tingly frayed feelings, the growing fatigue and weakness) happened after the crash and then months later a round of flagyl did me in. Never the same but also still then in mold house.

    After the post flagyl gait et al issues, myers cocktail and glut push IV once a week did relieve it and I tired of going so stopped.. then went abck becasue symptoms getting bad again and could not tolerate it.

    Robin

  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    I recognized your description of the "frayed" things once you explained it. It's sort of like in cartoons where a character pushes on something and a lot of little lightning sparks jump away from the point of contact. I tried to describe it as the sensations were sort of electrified and fragmented. This is a stage of coming back form numbness in my experience. Mold puts a terrible stress on the body and methyfolate and mb12 are big players in protecting against organic toxins of many kinds. Further my experience with glutathione, the first few days at low dose, some nerve pain closed down. Later I became aware that the nerves were closed down and NUMB rather than improved and non-painful. Nerve healing has been painful.

    Flagyl is nasty stuff. There are 165 drug interactions.

    http://www.drugs.com/disease-interactions/metronidazole,flagyl.html#Neurologic_Toxicity
    The use of nitroimidazoles (e.g., metronidazole, tinidazole) has been associated with the development of nervous system toxicity including convulsive seizures and dose-related peripheral neuropathy, the latter characterized primarily by numbness or paresthesia of an extremity. Persistent peripheral neuropathy has been reported in some patients treated for prolonged periods. Other neurologic adverse effects include vertigo, incoordination, ataxia, confusion, agitation, hallucinations, and depression. Therapy with nitroimidazoles should be administered cautiously in patients with or predisposed to seizures or other nervous system abnormalities. Nitroimidazole therapy should be discontinued promptly if neurologic disturbances occur.

    Myers cocktail - With glutathione?

    The gait issues, numb feet (not every day, but on and off), the awful tingly frayed feelings, the growing fatigue and weakness) happened after the crash and then months later a round of flagyl did me in. Never the same but also still then in mold house.


    Numb feet, "frayed" nerves, strange feelings, tinglings, jolting pains, etc appear slowly and stage by stage on the way down as they are being damaged. On the way back there is often a reverse of all those same symptoms as they happen backwards as healing, far more intense and more rapidly. I think they are very noticable because of the rapidly changing items.

    The glutathione numbs the nerves. Also before folate and b12 symptoms are relieved, glutathione offeres some relief maybe, but as soon as it causes a worsening or return of symtpoms people notice it. If one has all the symptoms intensly already there is no worsening to feel because nothing changes.

    It's usually much easier to get the active b12 protocol going right off. The influence of glutathione took six months for me to get rid of except for the increased neurological damage that has never recovered. And this was despite taking 800-1600mcg of Metafolina day. I needed to take 8800mcg. And I'm now up to 12,800mcg and holding my own against paradoxical folate deficiency which I didn't need so much, at least intermitantlly, before glutathione. Makes me wonder.
  20. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    Thank you for this response. It makes sense. AND kind of like that or more like little small firecrackers going off all under my skin and deeper. ITs electrical feeling.. yes. Like live wires with no sheath.

    Yesterday was bad. Got worse into PM. Brain and spine inflammation plusthe crazy creepies. I did not reach for the glut. As you are saying that pattern sounds familiar and going with your theory, that would be as you say a numbing (seemingly calming) effect but from stopping nerve healing through methylation, if I have that right. The other theory has been it pushes the toxins out adn through urine most likely.. gets them moving out rather than hanging out and causing damage and or addresses oxidative stress which is causing teh symptoms then when so much glut gathers in the body, it causes a "Detox" reaCtion. Don't jump on me for the latter; I'm just puttijg both lines of thought as I understand them out there to analyze.

    It was so bad last night I decided to stop and take a look at how I am doing this and also stop my two abx nasal sprays to address mrsa-marcons in my sinuses (I think the crusts my ent saw are on my turbinates post surgery and a swab tested pos for the mrsa-marcons which can make some nasty endotoxins). I have noticed that sometime since starting your protocol and the sprays.. my brain started going off.. memory, emotions, feeling like I was going to pass out, very irritable, unstable.. this was before the sprays because it happened on day of my ent appt. I was close to evil that day. This has continued to varying degrees but when I started (back on.. had been on them previously and took a week off) the sprays... things went downhill faster.. headaches and inflammation and pain directly in sinuses and the headache seemed connected to that.. worse brain fog and probably brain inflammation more associated with the beginning of the sprays and the inflammation in the sinuses from the sprays. This would be a die off reaction and from a bacteria that is considered a super antigen with some nasty endotoxins.

    So I am stopping both today. Starting back tomorrow on the sprays to see what symptoms come back. Then aa few days later the mb12, metafolin. But I dont know what dose to start with. I was very frightened last night. It felt like I was going insane. My upper lip kept wanting to snarl, no joking or over exaggeration at all.

    I was very close to reaching for the EDTA that Yasko recommends thnking thise cold be a lead dump. I think the lip "Snarling: has been mentioned with the lead moving but not sure. Maybe it could be a low potassium thing? Whatever the case it was darn scary and I literally held on to my skin last night feeling insanity was around the corner.

    So I need to decide where to start with the mb12-metafolin and probably back to my 10 mg where I was doing fine previously and 800mcg metaflin (I was doing fine previously at 400mcg so may even go back to that).

    I did notice last night and today that my calves are knotted muscles so I d think the potassium issue is there.. I am afraid to dose this wrong. I am at this point a single mom with two kids until our family is back together (kids and I move out of mold contaminated house while my husband is cleaning it out.. we are states awaynear my parents but with my dad's recent stroke, my mom just cant help.. and I was thinking 911 last night.. I cant put my kids through that).

    I understand what you are saying about everyone jumping on the detox-herxheimer train but ... yasko cannot be all wrong. We are not all one size fits all and in my mind, you present a valid expansion to yasko and rich. You frther expand the knowledge base and the umbrella becasue we are not all helped by the other protocols. But I also am wondering if some of these issues I am having are very well due to movement of metals or mycotoxins as well as low potassium.

    Is there a list of symptoms of low potassium, paradozxical folate defiencey (I added one more metafolin yesterday and it didnt help, could not have been enough or my symtpoms were not from the paradoxical FD). Paradoxical FD is like a folate and b12 crash where its all pulled out of cells and then what are the symptoms? Also when glut binds with mb12 for those of us who might have this issue (seemingly others dont.. the body can handle the glut-b12 remix.. srry forgot the name for that compound).. what are those symptoms..

    Could you put those in your sticky notes on starting the protocol if not already there? If so, and I missed them, I apologize.

    I did double my potassium yesterday to 1200mg.. Obviously not enough so keeping up with the potassium and probably a better idea to wait to add in the mb12 and metafolin to any extent until the muscle knots resolve?

    Thank you,

    Robin

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