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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,


    I have everything on-hand, including potassium. I would like to be able to distinguish the benefits of the adb12 from the benefits of mb12, especially since I might only need the adb12 once a week.

    Does it make any difference which I add first (mb12 or abd12)?


    Tyipically I would suggest mb12 be started first. The problem is it may take you months to reach mb12 saturation so that you can tell if the adb12 has much of an added difference. Most people top out on adb12 in a couple of doses in a couple of days. Since some of it converts, not much, but some, to mb12 you wll never top out the mb12 on adb12. SOme of the healing won't start until you start adb12 so you don't want to wait months to start it. If a person is going to start adb12 first, I suggest only 1 or 2 days before. Too much adb12 compared to mb12 causes it's own problems. If you just go in gangbustes on mb12, 15mg daily sublingual 45-120 minutes), you could reach saturation in a month or so. After you reach saturation in the body on both, then separate 50mg trials for the CNS deficiency is easy. But it has to be that a person has no reaction at 15mg and that 20 causes no change. With the adb12 10mg a day until there is no body response that can be felt, usually after day 3 or so is fine. Then when the body is saturated with both, try 50mg single sustained dose of mb12 sublingual. Body response has to be gone because CNS response is too subtle to feel otherwise. Then next day try 50mg ADB12. Same as the mb12, if any body reponse left then overwhelm brain. If you have a separate adb12 reponse in the brain, you would have in the body as well. It is important to know if there is a separate CNS response to either or both so you can plan accordingly.

    If I choose to start with lower doses (quarter or half tablet), how long should I wait before increasing?

    That depends upon what stories you tell yourself about the startup effects.

    Please understand that many docs would just start you on 1mg injection, about the same as a 5mg sublingual held for 45-120 minutes. While dose proportionate the response is not linear. A half a tablet can allow startup to go on for months and months. At 15mg a day, as 3 doses of 5mg, in a month or so, startup will likely be complete. It will be somewhat stronger than 1mg.

    You probably want to hold level until you get potassium under control and see what other induced deficiencies show up. Then as you increase continue watching.
     
  2. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    So in layman's terms - some people don't process folic acid well? This can undermine their B12 therapy, is this correct? Because the folic acid can't be utilized for some people, and builds up in their system?

    Is there a way to determine that this is going on with an individual person, or only by trial/error? The nutritionist/pharmacist who is helping my friend & I with his B12 therapy, is having him test his PH (which has been running right in the middle), and wants to review his CBC & B12 to see where it is at to see if we need to adjust the folate type, which I have been asking her about.

    However, does it HURT to add the metafolin or methylfolate or folinic acid?

    I hate to wait for the labs which I realize may not paint a true picture anyway, since while he is having some improvements especially in the morning - he's not so slurry or hoarse, feels really good, and is very conversant. In the afternoon he starts to fade to where by the evening he is confused & irritable, and his voice becomes more slurry & hoarse. While I appreciate the nutritionist's caution in getting the B12 going first then see where we're at before throwing more supplements into the mix, I don't want more damage to occur as we trial this out and also he is getting frustrated & worried at his perceived lack of improvement. He also has a lot of anxiety in the evening - this could be worry about his condition or chemical imbalances or both ?

    Does this going downhill toward evening point to anything to anybody?

    A clue ? - earlier this week he had some tingling on the one side of his chin, and it was red and a bit swollen. Turns out he took 2 multi's in the morning and one at evening, instead of the 1-am, 2-pm. This went away the next day.
     
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I'm bringing this here from another thread, and adding some information about potassium, so I don't lose it:

    "In July my serum potassium measured 3.7 (ref 3.5-5.2), and in August my urine potassium measured 65 (ref 22-82). I was not supplementing.

    I am about to add the active B12s to my protocol. I have potassium on hand.

    Is there a baseline amount of potassium I probably need even before adding the B12s?

    Hi Madie,

    As serum potassium is what we are measuring, and serum potassium can move up and down radically in a day or two, I would say that you might want to start on 600 a day (300mg twice a day) the day you start the active b12s so that at least your serum will be ok starting out. That may be nowhere near enough on day 3 or 4 or later. The body is much slower to move up or down and takes quite a while. I get in trouble at 4.2. At 3.7 I would be having controllable spasms daily as I did for years, at 3.7 and the docs, not ONE, ever said a thing."


    This 3.7 measurement was taken when I was eating a normal amount of folates. Now that I'm severely restricting folates, I'm not getting potassium in my diet. As potassium is the most dangerous aspect of the changes I'm making, I want to get a handle on it before I increase active B12s beyond what's in 2 B-Complex.

    I've had a rough 2 days following the day I added vegetables and fruits to meals, with 3200mcg solgar metafolin. I feel tired, nauseous, anxious, and emotionally raw.

    The adult RDI for potassium is 4700mg. I can't figure out how to make this work.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pea,

    So in layman's terms - some people don't process folic acid well? This can undermine their B12 therapy, is this correct? Because the folic acid can't be utilized for some people, and builds up in their system?


    Yes, that is correct. It also appears dose related. 400mcg a day might not be a problem whereas 1000mcg could be enough to entirely block the methylfolate. SOme people can procees folic acid a little. It isn't an all or nothing thing.



    However, does it HURT to add the folinic acid?

    I split out these two questions becasue they have different answers. Some people can't use folinic acid either. This has a worse result than folic acid. The folinic acid lasts longer in the blood and it is renewed from vegetables. This is the "natural" paradoxical folate deficiency and can be triggered by vegetable food source folate and by folinic acid. It is unknown what percentage of people are so affected.

    However, does it HURT to add the metafolin or methylfolate?

    The is the only form of folate, methylfolate of which Metafolin is the pharmaceutical grade brand and was allowed a patent for making a stable form of methylfolate. It has been through full pharmaceutical testing. It appears to work for everybody if they have the needed cofactors.


    and wants to review his CBC & B12 to see where it is at to see if we need to adjust the folate type, which I have been asking her about.

    That likely isn't going to do any good.


    he is having some improvements especially in the morning - he's not so slurry or hoarse, feels really good, and is very conversant. In the afternoon he starts to fade to where by the evening he is confused & irritable, and his voice becomes more slurry & hoarse.


    Metafolin, adb12, l-carnitine fumarate, POTASSIUM , b-complex, magnesium, A, C, D, E, zinc calcium, will all help. Mb12 by itself does very little. It HAS to have the other thongs to work. Also, the brand of mb12 makes all the difference in the world. ON the BASICS page http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics is a list of reasons why b12 therapies fail. You can use it as a checklist.

    REASONS WHY B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES DON'T WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE
    Version 2.0 - 03/10/11
    Version 2.1 - 05/08/11



    1. They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesnt work, oh well, thats the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzyme

    2. They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorbtion to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12.
    Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.

    3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorbtion back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorbtion is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorbtion tests comparing sublingual absorbtion to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.

    4. Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.

    5. For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesnt work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.

    6. They dont take BOTH active b12s.

    7. They dont take enough active b12s for the purpose.

    8. Lack of methylfolate

    9. Folic acid is taken which can block at least 4 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.

    10. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 5 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.

    11. Lack of other critical cofactors.

    12. Lack of basic cofactors

    13. Glutathione, glutathione direct precursors or NAC is taken causing what is often called "detox" while actually being induced folate and b12 deficiencies.


    since while he is having some improvements especially in the morning - he's not so slurry or hoarse, feels really good, and is very conversant. In the afternoon he starts to fade to where by the evening he is confused & irritable, and his voice becomes more slurry & hoarse

    This sounds like he is getting very marginal CNS penetration of cobalamin. He appears to need larger doses of mb12, some adb12 to the mitochondria working, Metafolin to help it all, and some l-carnitine fumarate and omega3 oils to aid CNS healing and get the body's and brain's energy going, and of course ALL the basics. I had that hoarse voice for years. It cleared up in mid word and never went back, but then I was taking much larger doses of mb12 and all the basics.


    Does this going downhill toward evening point to anything to anybody?

    Yes, inadequate doses, more frequent doses, missing cofactors. For me as long as the mb12 was in my mouth things worked much better. Hours later it was all worn off. As the dose went up it got closer and closer to lasting all day and evening.
     
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    The tests eating folates with 3200mcg metafolin failed. I've just come out of 5 crashy days, during which I upped my potassium from 4/day to 5 pills 3x (with water), while continuing the metafolin with modest amounts of folates at 2 meals/day.

    The potassium seems to stabilize my emotions (I had gotten uncharacteristically irritable and sad), but has had no effect on general tiredness, muscle tension, brain symptoms (poor concentration, brain fog, feeling 'thick' and stupid), and certain emotions (anxious, anti-social).

    I'm better, about a day after eating my last folates, but not yet back to the 'new normal' I enjoyed last week.

    Metafolin doses were 400 x 2 in the B-Complex, plus 3200 x 2 meals.

    I'm still not taking any sublingual B12 tablets, as I focus on learning my folate/potassium symptoms. I'm not taking the additional 3200 x 2 metafolin, since I'm not eating any folates. I've continued potassium, 5 pills x 3 doses.

    So I'm back to eating no folates, and once I'm stable again, I'll run another test.

    My plan is to keep potassium constant (unless symptoms indicate a need for more) at 1,500. Then either keep diet constant (animal protein only) + no Solgar + add sublingual B12. Or, experiment further with the ratio of Solgar:vegetable folates to see what I can tolerate (without adding B12).

    I don't really know what I'm doing, so I hope you'll throw suggestions at me.
     
  6. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    I've experimented a little. 300 mg of potassium taken after I've been up a while (usually around noon) and my muscle fatigue and heavy toxic feeling go away. Its like my muscles can breathe. Its not ner perfect but a relief like fresh air. So this is not a dose where I have complete relief and not sure if I should be expecting that or how to gauge enough for now.

    I have pulled out older labs (this past 6 months to a year) and see my potassium has been ranging from 3.8-4.2. Back and forth. Does this potentially indicate a chronically borderline state or barely enough?

    Do I stay with 300 mg and wait until symptoms come back to figure out dosing? How often do you take your potassium and how much per dose? I am concerned about taking too much at once.

    I am also off glutathione and taking 3 jarrow 5 mg a day now. I have source naturals ab12 that I have taken one tablet a day for a while, missing some days, taken half some days.. should I have more of a schedule and is it too much or little to take half a day or one a day. I see where you say a few a week can be good.

    I have solgar metafolin here. I took out the folinic. I was taking 400mcg and am thihkning to ramp up with each b12 taking 400mcg then moving to 800mcg with each b12.. does that sound about right?

    How do you judge when the metafolin is enough?

    I understand about b12 reaching certain points.. 15 mg then 20mg then shots if necessary from there?

    And am I correct here: we are low in b12. Any glutathione we add will rob the very low stores and deplete us further which will cause the methyl trap issue where b12 is out of cells and the active folate leaves the cell since the b12 is not there..

    We raise glutathione naturally when we methylate? or add in later when b12 stores can handle it? What about those of us with missing glutathione genes who may not be able to naturally make enough even if methylating?

    Thank you!

    Robin
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Without taking the additonal Metafolin as soon as you start the mb12 you will become deficient on the few hundred mcg of animal only folate.
     
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd,

    So that makes my decision for me. I'll work out how much folate I can eat relative to metafolin intake. I have noted your total daily intake of metafolin, and will go up to that dose if I need to.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    Try two, three, four and five such doses in a day and see if more works better. If it does, you are low becasue more than enough doesn't do a thing. You might need 2000mg a day for a while as you heal.

    my potassium has been ranging from 3.8-4.2. Back and forth. Does this potentially indicate a chronically borderline state or barely enough?


    It's not enough to keep all symptoms at bay, its low for you. Back and forth is a normal fluctuation from day to day.

    I understand about b12 reaching certain points.. 15 mg then 20mg then shots if necessary from there?

    Then you let yourself heal for 6 months or so and pay attention to any neurological, mood and personality things you have going on. During this time you will be trying various possibly critical cofactors, adjusting balance and things like that and paying attention to those thongs that are not changing favorably. Then you will try a single 50mg dose of each kind on different days.

    Do I stay with 300 mg and wait until symptoms come back to figure out dosing? How often do you take your potassium and how much per dose? I am concerned about taking too much at once.

    I take 700mg per meal, 2 meals a day, and 1 or 2 300mg doses a day, 1 dose always at bedtime depending upon symptoms. 300mg a day is totally minamal. You need to titrate by adding doses until you have no more potassium responsive symptoms.

    I have source naturals ab12 that I have taken one tablet a day for a while, missing some days, taken half some days.. should I have more of a schedule and is it too much or little to take half a day or one a day.

    Try holding a schedule for a couple of weeks, then try a different schedule, say 1 tablet each 2 or 3 days ot half every day or whatever and see if you notice any difference then or when you chnage to another. I found 3mg once a week ok for my body but not my CNS. I found 10mg/day fine gffor my body but not my CNS. I found 50-60mg once a week fine for my body and my CNS. This is one of those fine tunign things that you need to adjust to what works BEST for you. That can vary considerably from person to person.

    I have solgar metafolin here. I took out the folinic. I was taking 400mcg and am thihkning to ramp up with each b12 taking 400mcg then moving to 800mcg with each b12.. does that sound about right?

    You might find that 800mcg 3 times day for a base to test from. Then you can increase to 1600mcg per dose ot reduce to 400mcg per dise and see if it makes a difference. You can try them with food and without. If you find something that works noticably better try some variations around that. There is nothing cut and dried about this. Again, it depends upon what your sensitivity is to vegetable folate if any, and so forth. If everythong works great, then reduce to the dose that works best and the least you need for that.


    Any glutathione we add will rob the very low stores and deplete us further which will cause the methyl trap issue where b12 is out of cells and the active folate leaves the cell since the b12 is not there..

    Do NOT tyake any glutathione. Your body will make all you need. It doesn't matter what your so-called "stores" might be. The body contains up to 5mg of b12. 2mg of glutathione can destroy 8mg of b12 flushing it out of the body almost instantly.

    We raise glutathione naturally when we methylate?

    Yes. And with the active protocol methylation starts within hours.

    missing glutathione genes who may not be able to naturally make enough even if methylating?

    That is where you watch and see what doesn't heal. Then we start looking for reasons. Patience is required. You can have a real good idea in 6-12 months where things are going. This is with taking care of potassium and folate problems, if any, as they come up. Symptoms that are changing are typically symptoms that are healing during this period but it may take hundrfeds or thousands of steps to heal and every step of the way things are still wrong. One day you will wake up and there is no more nausea, or no more asthma attacks. So things don't anounce themselves cured, they just don't show up again. And rthen other things come and go, come and go. Those have reasons and we chase those down.
     
  10. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Thanks so much Fredd; I actually came on here this morning to view Basics thread to get the Adb12 & the methylfolate. His RBC is still low & MCV still highish (similar to pre-B12).

    Thanks for explaining the "fols" - I was confused at the various terminology but now I get it. I wanted to see if we could just add the methylfolate on top of his current B12 sublingual with folic acid, but it's probably best to to get the brands recommended here & re-start fresh or we're canceling things out.

    Nutritionist agrees with me that there is some kind of absorption issue he's always had - but that is WHY we do sublinguals - to bypass the digestive system & its possible malabsorption - correct?

    But then other supplements may not be all getting through..
     
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Pea, in case you haven't found it yet, this link takes you to Freddd's supplement list.
     
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Folates in meat, fish, and dairy

    Freddd said elsewhere that the folates in meat are methylfolates. I did a search this morning and found this:

    "Most previous and recent studies using HPLC indicate that 5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate (5-methyl-THF) is the major folate form in milk"

    And this, here:

    "Very low levels of folates were detected in meat and meat products. Fresh fish, fish sticks, and chicken meat contained reasonable amounts (3-13 micrograms/100 g) of tetrahydrofolate and 5-methyltetrahydrofolate. Egg yolk contained high concentrations of 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (140-150 micrograms/100 g); 10-formylfolic acid was also detected (14-17 micrograms/100 g). Between-species differences in folate monoglutamate distributions were observed. The highest levels of tetrahydrofolate, > 5 micrograms/100 g, were found in chicken meat and fillets of rainbow trout, whitefish, and baltic herring. Tetrahydrofolate was most abundant in fresh fish."
     
  13. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Madie, thanks for being a dear - I often do things in reverse order here in my mad scramble. I now see Cofactors are supplements, not hereditary factors.
     
  14. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Freddd and all,

    What are the start up symptoms? I have been taking b12 5 mg jarrow twice a day for a while and did not notice these strange symptoms until I added metafolin at the same time.. revved up, anxious, feeling im going to faint, some feelings off in my spine this last time. I took 400mcg metaflin then added 400mcg more and it went away.. is that about right? THe feelings arent totally gone but mostly. I was also using folicin before. This am though I also took 200 mg potassium.. that could not have caused this? It was wicked this am.. bad.. and lasted hours. Mypulse was in 60s at MD office.. low 60s which is not normal for me.

    Would there be a reason for this?

    Thank you..
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    I have been taking b12 5 mg jarrow twice a day for a while and did not notice these strange symptoms until I added metafolin at the same time.. revved up, anxious, feeling im going to faint, some feelings off in my spine this last time. I took 400mcg metaflin then added 400mcg more and it went away.. is that about right? THe feelings arent totally gone but mostly


    When Metafolin is added, especially after folic acid or folinic acid, it can often causes actual startup. Mb12 without an effective for the person folate does nothuing or very little. So the "revved up, anxious, feeling im going to faint" can be the actula nercvous system startup. It's not a bad thing and it fades away as the body adjusts

    some feelings off in my spine this last time

    Not sure what you mean. But when there is damage already the mb12/Metafolin can make it easier to feel,. As nerves come back they can become outright painful with jolting pains on the way to healing.

    THe feelings arent totally gone but mostly

    What cofactors are you taking? Adb12 and omega3 and vitamins and minerals and all that are needed to keep the healing going.


    Potassium will relieve some low potassium symptoms, often spasms, sick feelings, malaise, mood changes. If something like that happens, you will need a lot more than 200mg of potassium. Often the potassium drops around day 3.

    Good luck and keep things going and get the other things you need going.
     
  16. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    Thank you for responding. Its a creepy insane nerves frayed feeling. It can be in my spine (i have often said there is something in my spine and something in my sinsues and we found a lot of fungal balls in my sinuses recently, now cleaned out).

    The creepy feelings can be in my upper back as well. I usually take glutathione and it helps but I am holding off and experimenting with your protocol.

    I was thining all of this was lyme then mold toxins but now wondering. I also have yaskos b12 snps: MTR and MTRR which means I gas guzzle b12 adn dont recycle it well. I was a vegetarian (eggs rarely but cheese often) for 23 years and breastfed my kids for 7 years while a vegetarian. I got sick about 6-7 years into that while the kneewall fo my shower was growing a mold colony.

    I also have yasko's COMT++,++ which she warns agains methyl b12 and methyl groups in general becasue the methyl groups keep dopamine and adrenaline from re uptaking and or recycling. SO we are supposed to have about 4 times the amount of adrenaline than most people.

    So I dont know if its the increase in methyl donors I am adding in the mix here or the start up.. if the latter, I can expect it to go away it seems.

    I have not loaded up my weekly pill boxes yet. so no co factors at the moment while I started this. I should be taking ADEK1 and 2/4 and 7, minerals for kpu (zinc, mangansese, chromium, moly) selenium, B6 (KPU) B complex (bio body with no FA or b12), carnitine (not your recommended form yet), TMG I think in Betaine? fish oil, ubiquinol, primrose (KPU). Im sure IM leaving something out. I am still taking C.

    What do you think of Paul Cheney's electrolyte drink (for cfs folk with dysautonomia): 1/4 tsp sea salt, 1/4 tsp no salt (610 potassium chloride in a 1/2 tsp) 4-6 times a day (I have made in a water and lemon drink.. its good with stevia).. do you think the salt interfers with the potassium in the sense you are talking about?

    I am for better or worse taking 1 800mcg metafolin with the 5 mg jarrow sublingual 3 times a day. 1 Ab12, source naturals.
     
  17. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    also, Freddd.. do you also like yasko think that methylation will cause the cells to dump toxins like metals and viruses as well?

    Robin
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    Just a quick comment on one thoig and I'll look at it tomorrow again. The CoQ10 can be a problem during the early stages. In me and several people, blood pressure shot up 50 points or more, dangerous. This occured in the first several months of the active b12 protocol.
     
  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Robin,

    Freddd replied that low potassium can cause mood changes, so I looked through my recent notes. I had a very difficult few days with wildly fluctuating and reactive emotions. Increasing potassium from 4/day to 5 2x a day didn't help. But 5 3x a day seems to do the trick for me. This amount of potassium also seems to be helping my sleep.

    Don't go by my exact numbers, as I'm not taking any active B12 beyond the 1000mcg swallowed in 2 B-Complex. I'm getting this reaction just from metafolin and hydroxy B12, plus all the co-factors, along with a very low-folate diet.

    Madie
     
  20. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Maddie,

    What kind of potassium do you take?

    Right now, I have the salt substitute, NOW multi minerals, and some k-dur as rescue.

    I have some sodium potassium bicarb, but haven't used it.
     

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