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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Dreambirdie,

    I bought a potassium meter, which I calibrate daily with provided solutions. The company provides simple directions online for using the meter for saliva testing, and they have a chart I downloaded, giving the equivalencies between salivary readings and blood results. Since my potassium ran low before starting methylation, and since methylation can cause sudden potassium drops, I decided to keep a close eye on my levels.

    I think it's wonderful that you can do this instinctively. Unfortunately, that didn't help me, so I'm back to working this like a puzzle.
     
  2. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    This is an interesting experiment! But if you have paradoxical folate deficiency, wouldn't this program have yielded results within a day or two? I thought folinic acid moved through our systems in about 24 hours.

    It sounds like you did get results with the brain fog, but then I don't understand what you mean (bolded text). Has brain fog improved markedly?
     
  3. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    If you have problems taking folic acid it usually stems from a riboflavin deficiency, B2. This is because an enzyme reaction is required to convert folic acid in supplements and foods to it's active form, tetrahydrofolate. B2 is needed in the energy cycle, so if you are low, and you take or eat allot of FA, you will lower your B2, which will slow the citric acid cycle (methylation), which will make you more tired.

    You can only absorb 25 mg. of B2/hour so don't try taking allot all at once. Take small doses throughout the day.

    And, if you have been B2 deficient, then you will have overaccumulated iron in your liver. When you start taking B2 it will then release this iron into the intestines causing some distress there and the bile that gets reabsorbed and recirculated will naturally take some of this released iron back into the bloodstream, causing some people to feel angry, emotional and/or hot until it clears the circulation again.

    Common symptoms of low riboflavin are cracks in the lips, sore tongue, gums, sensitive throat, blurred vision, red, dry gritty eyes, sensitivity to light, impaired hand and eye coordination, congestion, inability to detoxify xenobiotics (any foreign substance to the body, even alcohol), hair loss, skin breakouts, dry flaking skin, dry mouth/mucus membranes (Low B2 = high sodium, high sodium = low magnesium) inability to regulate the circidian sleep cycle, anemia and many various types of emotional issues.

    Any of this sound familiar . . . .

    If you eat thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid and iron enriched wheat products - these contribute to a riboflavin deficiency. Why? Because niacin and folic acid increase iron's absorption which leads to riboflavin deficiency!
     
    place likes this.
  4. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I had the result on the day after I had allowed 24 hours on the diet, so only after hour 24. I haven't gone over 24 hours again though. Brain fog has not improved markedly, only a little. It's hard to tell yet if it's significant. So I still don't know what is a fluke and what is a pattern!
     
  5. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    I know a person with CFS that tried just B2 and B12 and she told me today that she is doing fine.
     
  6. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    So if you have been diagnosed with folic acid deficiency and you have problems taking or eating it, then the deficiency is most likely due to having eaten too much iron, niacin, folic acid, riboflavin and thiamine enriched wheat products. Wheat itself is high in folic acid and niacin. Folic acid and Niacin increase absorption of iron. The more iron you have, the more riboflavin you require to adequately use the iron. So if you never put in extra riboflavin, then you would become riboflavin deficient! And the more folic acid you consume, the more deficient in B2 you will become and the more symptoms you will encounter.
     
  7. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Thanks Dog Person! Most of us in reading here I think have gone off enriched wheat flour. As well, I take a B complex that has active riboflavin. About how much riboflavin in a day would you recommend?
     
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Dog Person,

    If simply adding B2 and B12 cured your friend, she had a B deficiency, not CFS.
     
    Kina likes this.
  9. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Dog Person,

    I appreciate that you want to share what you know about B2 and related subjects. Maybe you should start a thread about that, for people who have a B2 deficiency.

    Supplementation of B vitamins is foundational in methylation protocols, so all of us on this thread are taking Bs. There has also been a huge amount of discussion about folic/folinic acid lately, which you might not have found yet. [Look at Freddd's posts.]

    As L'engle says, lots of us are many years off wheat. I eat Paleo, so I don't eat any folic acid.
     
  10. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Hi MaddieTodd...

    I just wanted to chime in here and say that the B complex was not enough for me in my methylation endeavors. I had to take extra B1, B2, and Biotin in addition to the B complex.

    Hello Dog Person...

    I found I needed the extra B2 during an episode of trimethylaminuria after eating bean soup for lunch for a week. I have had a few bouts since childhood, but it has always gone away.

    Laurie
     
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    LaurieL -

    Very interesting, and thanks for this information. Did you take one or two B Complex daily? (Maybe I should bump up to 2.) Did you know you were low from symptoms, or from testing? Or both?

    Do you eat fortified foods? I'm not so much curious in terms of added Bs; it's more about the possible issues with everything Dog Person discusses.

    Madie
     
  12. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    LaurieL,

    If you look up beans on the USDA nutrient data base you will find they are very high in folic acid. This is what I was saying. It takes lots of B2 to activate folic acid in foods to it's usable form in the body. So eating it or taking it lowers the B2.

    Also, B2 is the only vitamin that very recently has been found to be stored in the body at much higher levels than originally thought - the liver being the highest place. Studies show that it takes 3 months on a diet with no B2 in foods or supplements to create a B2 deficiency. The professor that I spoke with regarding this research says at the point where you show B2 deficiency symptoms, you will already have deficiency if B6, folic acid, niacin, B12, and choline, since B2 is necessary for all of them to be used or kept by the body. And as you all know, they all are in the energy producing cycle, which does not run well if you are low.
     
  13. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    I should also add that B6 is stored in the muscles, however, it is not normally pulled from there for use so in the sense that you do not store it is an accurate statement.

    B12 is stored in the liver as well.
     
  14. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    And one more thing I should mention is that working with the citric acid cycle is what I do for a living - I am president of a company that helps people to rebalance all the energy systems in the body. Daily I interact with graduate level professors of nutrition and even they will tell you that no one fully understands this process since it is so very complicated. Also, due to research being too costly to study the interactions between all the B vitamins and the fact that if you took enough blood from a mouse or rat to test all the B's every day, in a very short time the lab animal would be out of blood and the cost of the testing would exceed what a research grant will fund.

    I have been doing my research using hair mineral testing. Since in nutrition it is know that the body tends to accumulates heavy metals when it is unable to use it's own minerals correctly or is deficient in them, many correlations can be made to nutrition. We also know, that all minerals are either stored in the liver or pass through the liver from proper usage. All of them require the B vitamins to be in balance for the liver to work correctly at using and delivering them to the bloodstream. One example is elevation of arsenic has strong correlation to low levels of B2. Elevation of cadmium shows deficiency of niacin and/or calcium.

    So this is just a little more information for you. I thought I'd write some of what I know because of my friend that I worked with and she is doing so well. Like I mentioned, I would imagine there exists a deficient in many of these vitamins, but by taking all of them and/or minerals, you just keep using up the B2 and not getting ahead. And as you wrote, various things will drop that already existing life critical level, and you are now tired yet again - as you've experienced many, times.
     
  15. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I have had arsenic show up repeatedly in my hair mineral tests, and did not know this had anything to do with B2 deficiency.

    Given all this info that you've posted about the B vitamins, HOW MUCH of each is the right amount?
     
  16. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    I tested positive for arsenic poisoning after having chinese food. The doctor said it was quite common, and did not seem concerned. Of course, I have not had chinese food for several years now.
     
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    Arsenic toxicity is common in ME/CFS. Both glutathione and methylation are necessary to detox arsenic, and both are depleted in ME/CFS, as explained by the GD-MCB hypothesis:

    http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/$%7Bweburl%7D

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  18. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    The bile/arsenite/riboflavin transporter (BART) superfamily
    Division of Biological Sciences, University of California at San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093-0116, USA
    Functional data for members of three of these families are available, and they transport bile salts and other organic anions, the bile acid:Na(+) symporter (BASS) family, inorganic anions such as arsenite and antimonite, the arsenical resistance-3 (Acr3) family, and the riboflavin transporter (RFT) family.

    In the intestines, riboflavin is needed to convert iron (FE) from the 3+ state to the 2+ state before it can be absorbed. It will then allow transport through the intestines on a special transporter called DMT1. Riboflavin also converts FE3+ (storage form) to Fe2+ (usable form) in the liver before it can be sent out to be used in various processes. So when riboflavin is low, the circulating iron is low because it can not get out of the liver. Thus the intestines thinks you need to absorb more iron to assist these needs. Iron is brought into the body via a transporter called the DMT1. Unfortunately, this transporter also brings in many other heavy metals arsenic being one.

    Also, a riboflavin enzyme reaction is required to produce glutathione and recycle it for reuse. In humans, more than 90 percent of inorganic arsenite and arsenate from water is absorbed (Vahter, 1983), and approximately 60 to 70 percent of dietary arsenic is absorbed (Hopenhayn-Rich et al., 1993). Once absorbed, inorganic arsenic is transported to the liver where it is reduced to arsenite and then methylated. The majority of ingested arsenic is rapidly excreted in the urine.

    Removing arsenic once in the body requires adequate levels of glutathione, or it can not leave the body. So this is why low B2 = elevation of arsenic in a hair chart.
     
  19. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Many thanks Dog Person, this is all extremely useful. I have a hair analysis which shows off the charts lead and phosphorus (and other off the charts meaurements). Would this be through B2 deficiency as well?
     
  20. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    Hi Brenda,

    What lab tested your hair? Can you scan the chart and email it to me? I would like to see how you are using your body's minerals. You said you had very high levels and normally if above normal range, minerals mean they are not bound to their carrier proteins and in a free radical state.
     

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