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Folate Issues & Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by madietodd, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    This is a thread for people figuring out issues with folates while on methylation protocols.

    2 weeks ago, I cut out all supplements with folates (other than metafolin), all fruits, and all vegetables, to see what would happen. Overnight my brain came back on-line. I am now experimenting with:

    1. How much natural folate I can tolerate, from which sources. Are nuts a problem? Are leafy greens worse than an equal amount of folate from, say, carrots? Can I tolerate more by pre-loading with metafolin?

    2. Since I'm now unable to tolerate parts of the Simplified Methylation Protocol, does this mean I have to switch to the Active one? What happens if I switch out the cofactors but keep using hydroxy b12? This might prevent the big startup problems, and the potassium issues. (Note, there is mb12 in my Douglas Labs B-Complex.)

    3. How long do I stick with one level of supplementation before adding the next piece?

    4. I'd like to share stories...what symptoms changed, supplement reactions, dosage experiments, etc.


    I use this site for nutritional information. Go to "tools" on the left, >nutrient search, >foods lowest in [insert 'folate'], > within [insert 'vegetables' or 'fruits' etc.]. Or just insert a food in the search box.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    I find that taking 3200mcg with each meal is at least equal to taking a 1600mcg preload and 1600mcg with meal. I find the full active protcol to be massively more effective, both as to the forms of mb12/adb12 and by having all the necessary cofactors without having to play hunt the elephant with a BB gun.

    3. How long do I stick with one level of supplementation before adding the next piece?


    I would add ALL the basic vitamins and minerals, they are all essential for healing to occur. Then as I see what things are not healing add critical cofactors. However, the basic trinity, mb12,adb12, metafolin are all essential. Working up toi 15-20mg sulblingual per day of mb12 will heal the most. The faster you do that the faster the startup fades. Adb12 has minior startup for a few days if one is taking the even 3mg a day. It takes me 12,800mcg of Metafolin to not be deficienct while eating veggies.
    1. How much natural folate I can tolerate, from which sources. Are nuts a problem? Are leafy greens worse than an equal amount of folate from, say, carrots? Can I tolerate more by pre-loading with metafolin?


    I think that the folate from all the various veggies is pretty much a problem. The qunatity is the key. I am trying to be able to eat a sizable salad, Roamain/leaf lettaces, carrots, cucumbers, tomatoes etc., no pickled stuff, no dressing, and a serving of cooked veggies like chard or other such, carrots, winter squash, green beans, spinich, etc. I also like onions in various ways at the same meal, potatoes, etc. I eat about 6 oz of meat and all the rest is veggies at dinner. My early in day meal is leftovers or eggs and toast or whatever, it varies a lot. I completely avoid "enriched" products. So I eat old fashioned oatmeal but not prepared "enriched" cereals and often include fruit for either or both meals.

    Since I'm now unable to tolerate parts of the Simplified Methylation Protocol,

    What does that mean?
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I can't tolerate the Yasko multi, which has folic acid in it, and obviously I can't take the additional 200mg of folic acid daily. So I can't do the SMP as written.

    I understand that your active protocol works as a synergistic whole, and I know I'm messing with it. But given that my symptoms are relatively mild and not as widespread as yours, I'm moving in slowly. I felt 80% better just from dropping all folic/folinic acid while taking the B-Complex. Since I'm not eating a "healthy diet" while I figure this out, I'm taking all of your recommended essential supplements except for the adb12 and mb12. Because for my purposes, it's useful to add them later, once I see how far this takes me.

    My current experiment is adding back in 2 drops of hydroxy b12 daily, because I have it already, and its action is gentle. I think my next experiment will be adding either SAM-e or L-Carnitine Fumarate, to see if I can shift the PEM and tight neck muscles.
  4. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Here are some notes from the CONFIRMED FOLATE DEFICIENCIES THREAD that are probably better off here anyway.

    TRYING to confirm folate deficiencies -- But I am having trouble excluding foods that may have gotten into my gut AFTER the 3 hour half-life of my methylfolate.
    skin splitting may be a symptom of folate deficiency for me.
    Potassium drops may also be symptomatic, but this can be related to blood loss, too.

    Now, I am looking back at those inadvertent exposures, and seeing the fatigue, muscle pain, and brain fog that followed! WOW!


    Apparently, this patient has trouble reading her own nutrition labels -
    kombucha - some type of folate
    orange juice- some form of folate
    fresh pineapple - some folate, but small

    I had some "breakthrough" neuropathies while on-protocol, and could not figure it out.

    But, for me, I am NOT sure if 3200 mcg before a meal gives me enough saving grace to compete with any folic/folinic I may consume during the meal OR
    maybe I am still experiencing folic/folinic washout from the last inadvertent exposure.

    Maddietodd, our symptoms are SO similar!!

    Back to the drawing board on what foods I may be over-consuming, and to look again at why my special diet may have worked well.

    ___________________________________________

    Protocol notes: (went back to FAP since that is what I had in the drawer, have never done SMP- have never done hydroxy, always did jarrow)
    I am on full active protocol including:
    jarrow mb12
    enzymatic therapies mb12
    dibencozide without folic added
    methylfolate (Solgar)
    potassium
    fish oil (EPA, DHA)
    high dose A&D fermented cod liver oil
    high dose butter oil
    NOW minerals (just sometimes)
    melatonin (to keep away the vivid horrific nightmares)

    working on adding in:
    CoQ10
    r-ALA

    plus potassium - which I was trying to get in foods until I almost had a potassium crash a couple of days ago from blood loss, and my body just could not keep up with the potassium demand. As soon as I got potassium on board, I was feeling better. For now, I add potassium with the "low sodium" salt. cheap and readily available, easy to measure, easy to take with in the car for recent potassium emergencies from blood loss or over-exposure.

    I am too afraid of raging diarrhea to eat a "healthy" diet for now, but I actually eat a lot of high fat nutrient dense foods, one of which is soaked and slow toasted pecans. IF my diet is careful, I think I can continue them, but will check them against that link up there.

    I am looking at SAM-e and L-Carn. Fum., too.

    I was on full active protocol a couple years ago (with folic), quit for a while, until I had a confirmed single C677T, then started back up on full protocol when my doc did not even not that methylfolate could unmask a b12 deficiency. some heart attack deaths in family, stroke related problems, ADHD, ADD, depression ran through the family too, etc.

    I am also doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy for other reasons, but can get into that later.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Madie,

    It took 3 years of mb12, 2.25 years of adb12 and a year or so of l-cantitine fumarate to heal the muscles in my neck so they could loosen up. Further it didn't happen until I had gone to 5mg a day of injected mb12 for a year. In the symptoms list on active b12 basics there are 12 specific muscle pains descriptions. They cpover the spectrum of what is required to relieve them including methylfolate for a couple of them. That info is not posted, not perfected enough.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Newsmax has picked up in folate deficiency.


    http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/signs-of-folate-deficiency/2011/02/18/id/386663
    Deficiency of folate may result in immense bleeding of the gastrointestinal tract as well as other areas. Immediate medical advice should be taken if there is any bleeding in the body as this is a symptom of the chronic stages of folate deficiency.

    In adults, one of the main folate deficiency symptoms could be anemia. Anemia is caused due to the decrease of a compound called hemoglobin in the blood. Some of the symptoms of anemia include shortness of breath, palpitations, fatigue, and pale skin.


    Read more on Newsmax.com: Top 5 Signs of Folate Deficiency
    Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!
    Some of the early symptoms of folate deficiency include fatigue, headache, palpitations, diarrhea, as well as difficulty concentrating.

    People with a folate deficiency will show obvious physical signs like weight loss and loss of appetite. Folate deficiency is also known to cause sore tongue, headache, and irritability. Several behavioral disorders and depression might also be seen in the person with folate deficiency, as the nutrient plays a key role in maintaining the health of the central nervous system.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Post 24, Active B12 sticky:

    SYMPTOMS, SIGNS, CHARACTERISTICS OF METHYB12, ADENOSYLB12, METHYLFOLATE and limited cofactors, CNS and body deficiencies
    Version 2.0 01/21/2012

    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores
    dry mouth
    excessive thirst
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)

    burning muscle pain
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    exercise does not build muscle
    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    exercise deblitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS
    Widespread muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Bursitis
    Joint pain
    Pain in weight bearing joints
    morning joint stiffness


    sick stomach
    nausea
    stomach not emptying
    bloating
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 contining foods, nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittant diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    Crohns disease (direction of causality if any not established)
    Celiac disease (direction of causality if any not established) - gluten sensitivity
    Dairy sensitivity - beyond lactose intolerance
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bullimia
    weight loss
    weight gain

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN
    low testosterone
    erectile disfunction
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN
    low testosterone
    low estrogen
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis
    False positive pap smears
    menstrual symptoms
    Frequent miscarriage
    PMS
    Chronic yeast infections
    onset of menopause - unexpected

    paleness
    rapid heart rate
    heart arythymias
    shortness of breath
    heart palpitations
    weak pulse
    congestive heart failure
    arteriosclerosis

    Widespread pain throughout body
    Hypothyroid (direction of causality if any not established)
    Hasimoto's Thyroiditis, affected during active phase, appears to be deficiency result

    High homocysteine
    High urinary MMA

    dizziness - even unable to walk
    vertigo

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding
    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    Difficulty assimilating new information
    Reduced task completion
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    inappropriate anger
    rage
    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychosis seen in literature, megoblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    panic attacks
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to chemicals
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symtoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes



    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatiguability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness


    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    lack of dreaming
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnogogic state transitioning to sleep
    Sleep paralysis

    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    metallic taste
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    Slow to adapt to night vision
    Night blindness
    tearing
    redness of eyes
    Age Related Macular Degneration
    Optic neuritis
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    low body temperature
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds

    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    neural tube defect
    mother of child with neural tube defect
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonial degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes

    neuropathies, many types
    progressive bilateral neuropathies
    demyelination of nerves - white spots on nerves on MRIs
    loss of detail and sensual aspects of touch all over body
    paresthesias anywhere in body - tingling, pins and needles, etc
    paresthesias in one left foot only
    paresthesias in one right foot only
    paresthesias in one left leg only
    paresthesias in one right leg only
    paresthesias in one left hand only
    paresthesias in one right hand only
    paresthesias in one left arm only
    paresthesias in one right arm only
    paresthesias in both feet - cobwebs, hairs etc
    paresthesias in both feet - burning, cold, wet, etc
    paresthesias in both feet - tingling,painnful tingling, etc
    paresthesias in both feet - pain - mild to seveere or acute, shallow to deep, etc
    paresthesias in both feet - numbness in skin, etc
    paresthesias in both feet - numbness in muscles, etc
    paresthesias in both legs - cobwebs, hairs etc
    paresthesias in both legs- burning, cold, wet, etc
    paresthesias in both legs - tingling,painnful tingling, etc
    paresthesias in both feet - pain - mild to seveere or acute, shallow to deep, etc
    paresthesias in both legs- numbness in skin, etc
    paresthesias in both legs - numbness in muscles, etc
    paresthesias in both legs - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hair, pain, numbness, etc
    paresthesias in both hands - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc
    paresthesias in both arms - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc
    Loss of position sense is 1 of 2 most common abnormality (or vibration sense)
    Loss of vibration sense is 1 of 2 most common abnormality (or position sense)
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    trembling
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    urinary incontenance - occasionally to frequently
    fecal incontinance - occasionally to frequently
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    standing with eyes closed, a slight nudge or bump causes loss of balance
    most patients have signs of both spinal cord and peripheral nerve involvement

    The effect on reflexes is quite variable
    Motor impairment may range from only mild clumsiness to a spastic paraplegia
    clumsiness
    slowed nerve impulses
    decreased reflexes
    difficulty swallowing
    brisk reflexes
    decreased deep tendon reflex
    toes turn up instead of down in reflex to sole stimulation
    Positive bilateral Babinski reflex
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness
    drowsy

    suspicious
    apathetic
    rapid and unpredictable emotional changes
    limbs feel stiff


    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    low hematocrit
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem






    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet disfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hypersegmented neutrophils

    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrheic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    Hyperhidrosis - excessive sweating

    Bariatric surgery
    Dilantin and some other medications
    Relatives, grandparant, parent, sibling, child, grandchild ever needing b12 shots or supplement
    coma
    seizures
    brain atrophy with ileal tuberculosis preventing b12 absorbtion
    Intestinal parasites
    Intestinal bacterial overgrowrth
    Low CSF cobalamin
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low blood serum level
    Elevated uMMA
    Elevated blood serum Hcy


    Starting AS INFANT OR CHILD

    delayed myelination
    failure to thrive
    autism
    delayed speech
    depression
    frequent or continuous toncilitis
    frequent strep
    frequent pneumonia
    frequent longlasting supposed viral illnesses that linger and linger and linger
    everything goes to the lungs for extended periods
    headaches
    growing pains
    skin problems
    dandruff
    allergies
    asthma
    continuous swolen glands in neck
    low grade fever for years
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnopompic state transitioning from sleep
    Prolonged hypnagogic state transitioning to sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    seizures
    coma
    nosebleeds
    FREQUENT DIAGNOSES OR OTHER PROVIDER BEHAVIOR

    FMS
    CFS
    ME
    ED
    IBS
    Sub-acute combined degeneration
    Low Testosterone
    Fertility Problems, male and female
    Sleep Disorders
    Neural Tube Defects
    Peripheral Neuropathy
    Polyneuropathy
    Autonomic neuropathy
    Conversion Disorder
    Hypochondria
    "TOO many symptoms to be believable"
    Liar
    Alcoholic - non-drinker or genuine light drinker
    Removed from Practice for knowing to much
    Its All In Your Head - IAIYH
    Removed from practice for insisting that there is REALLY something wrong instead of IAIYH
    Alzheimer's
  9. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Madie

    Seeing that list you just posted is bringing tears to my eyes.

    WOW.

    The improvements I get on FAP while also being careful of my metafolin dose timing and watching potassium!

    The main two lingering symptoms I'd love to see gone are:
    brain fog (this is improving, no doubt)
    post exercise fatigue lasting up to a week (in my own mind, a milestone or watermark symptom)

    _______________________________________

    I used to look at that list a few years ago, and would wonder if any of my problems could even improve, much less go away.

    _____________________________________
  10. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd,

    I will try taking the Solgar with veggie meals in increasing multiples of 800mcg. Your last paragraph implies that you don't have problems with other sources of folates, like fruit and nuts. Do I understand this correctly? I did have some apple and some grapes a few days ago, and nothing happened.

    You also mention toast; if you eat wheat bread, what safe brand(s) have you found? If you're GF, are all GF breads safe if they don't say "enriched"? I'm specifically thinking of Udi's and Rudy's, available pretty widely in the US.

    As to elephants and BB guns, I'm thinking that my problem might be singluar (folates), and best suited to delicate surgery. I might "only" have a folate issue that took 35 years to create problems, and then progressed remarkably slowly over 25 years as other systems got knocked out. My hypothesis ATM is that this inability to properly use folates has caused the methylation problems and all the other spin-offs so often discussed here. The most straightforward way to test this is to directly address the folate problem without adding large amounts of B12s, and see what happens.

    I could get a big bomb and blast everything all at once, but it's possible that I would create new problems. I'm improving, and my only "start-up" issues were a few days of horrible sleep and 2 headaches. As long as I'm not back-sliding, I can afford to take my time and move step-by-step.

    My worst symptoms have always been cognitive. Foggy, no memory, no motivation, can't process information, can't learn new things, can't be around people. My physical stamina is somewhat limited, and I get PEM, but the brain stuff is what keeps me at home. So it's pretty amazing that my brain's coming back, and that I had 10 people over on Sunday and had a blast. I also notice that the psoriasis that I've been scratching from earliest childhood is almost gone.
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I keep a diary that includes a log of symptoms so I can clearly see how far I've come. I love when I look back and see one I've forgotten about!

    I agree about the PEM. Last year I went to a gym 3x a week doing a resistance circuit - low reps, low weights - just hoping to build some muscle. Well, after 3 months I was at the same reps, same weights, and suddenly one day I didn't want to go any more. That was the start of a slide that lasted until April, when I started the SMP. I'm going to try again, and see if the L-Carnitine makes a difference.
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    It might be that you need longer time to recuperate between workouts. 3x a week is fine for healthy people, but I suspect you need more than the standard 48 hours of recovery. I find that my maximum is 2x a week. I'm simply flattened for 2-3 days after a workout.

    You might also try an increased potassium intake after a workout. After my last workout I was feeling terrible, but I revovered much more quickly by increasing my potassium intake. I'm going to be testing this theory in the coming time, but I am quite optimistic about it.

    Also, if you do resistance training you're gonna need lots of high quality protein, or you'll only be breaking down your muscles, instead of building them.

    Finally, I find that adb12 helps tremendously with working out, much more than the other supplements. You really need all the ATP and mitochondrial power you can get.
  13. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Thanks, Adreno. I eat a very high protein diet. I haven't started the "workouts" yet. I can't really call them workouts, because I don't try to break a sweat or feel a burn. I'm a slow-and-steady kind of person. I've been doing far-infrared saunas for a few months now, and my naturopath 'prescribed' Hammer 'Endurolytes', taken 2 every hour for 3 hours, after the sauna. I figure I'll do the machines first, then the sauna, and then take the pills. I will follow your advice, and start with 2 sessions per week (instead of the 3x I do the sauna).

    Please keep me posted about your potassium experiments. I'm following Freddd's advice about that - I keep it beside my bed, with water.

    The Endurolytes have, in each pill:

    Sodium (Chloride) 40mg
    (Sodium) Chloride 60mg
    Calcium (Chelate) 50mg
    Magnesium (Chelate) 25mg
    Potassium (Chelate) 25mg
    B-6 (Pyridoxide HCL) 6.6mg
    Manganese (Chelate) 1.6mg
    L-Tyrosine 50mg
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Which of these do you have?


  15. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Freddd -

    This covers most of the symptoms I've had over the past 25 years. Diet is huge for me; I can give myself arthritis by eating nightshades (one serving), and I can make myself exhausted by eating gluten 3 days in a row. I drink milk, but it makes my eyes blurry. I can drink decaf tea, but my muscles get tight. Etc.

    I've put * beside the things that go away when I eat right, and ** beside the things that are not a problem, since this change 2 weeks ago. (Are things that haven't bothered me recently)

    (sore muscles throughout body*)
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    exercise does not build muscle
    sore neck muscles
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially one side of neck and down under shoulderblade **less
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones, both shoulders **less
    Joint pain*
    Pain in weight bearing joints*
    morning joint stiffness*

    (bloating)
    altered bowel habits - very very slow peristalsis if I don't take 600mg magnesium/day
    gluten sensitivity
    weight gain * losing significant weight since going low carb - lost appetite

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire**
    loss of orgasmic intensity**
    unsatisfying orgasms**
    inability to orgasm**

    (post-partum depression, next-to-last pregnancy, 6 years into CFS) I almost had a nervous breakdown

    (heart arythymias)
    (heart palpitations)

    (vertigo) twice, lasted a few days

    Confusion**
    Disorientation**
    Difficulty in word finding**
    (SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder)
    mental slowing**
    poor concentration**
    Difficulty assimilating new information**
    Reduced task completion**
    tiredness**
    memory loss**
    listlessness**
    impaired connection to others**
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog**
    anxiety or tension**
    (nervousness)
    (panic attacks)
    Hypersensitivity to odors **less
    Hypersensitivity to chemicals **less
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises**
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli**

    mild fatigue** much less
    continuous fatigue** much less
    easy fatiguability** stamina improved
    weakness** much less

    non restorative sleep** much better
    lack of dreaming**
    note - terrible trouble getting to sleep, staying asleep, getting back to sleep** much better after initial bedlam (I take natural sleep aids nightly)

    alterations and loss of taste** improving
    alterations and loss of smell** improving
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light, mild** improving
    Slow to adapt to night vision, mild
    Night blindness, mild
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    low body temperature
    intolerance to loud sounds** improving
    intolerance to multiple sounds** much better

    eczema (psoriasis)** nearly gone
    dermatitis (random small round dry patches)** entirely gone
    thin nails - break easily

    Intestinal bacterial overgrowth, 6 months ago, not re-tested
    candida overgrowth, 6 months ago, just finished treatment, not re-tested.

    Madie
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Madie,

    Can you remind of the change 2 weeks ago please?
  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Sorry, Freddd.

    I'd been on Rich's protocol for 9 months. I stopped that protocol, stopped all sources of folinic acid, folic acid, folates, and added in all of your supplements but NOT any b12s. I added the supplements because I wasn't taking a multi any more, and wasn't eating fruits/veggies. I had run out of my regular multi B, and had your Thorne B-Complex on hand, so I had been taking that for a few weeks before this change 2 weeks ago.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    I suspect that mb12/adb12 and Metafolin would all help considerably based on your symptoms.
  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    East Coast, USA
    Thanks, Freddd!
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Madie,

    Also the l-carntine fumarate. I forgot that.

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