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Folate and histamine issues

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Freddd @adreno @Hip @Martial @Radio @caledonia or anyone else who could give me some input...

    I didn’t know what methylation was about when I started taking mB12. The gains were so impressive that I didn’t want to stop it... Altough I do not have ME or CFS, I was having severe cognition decline, strong EMF sensitivity, tiredness, weakness and many other smaller symptoms which cleared upon starting mB12. If I track back my complaints, they apparently start in 2004, when I was bitten for the 2nd by tick larvae (1st time in 2003 that I know of).

    Attached is my hair test and there is more about my health issues in this file. My current weight is 101 pounds (5.3”).

    I have been reading around here a lot to know that I have been doing one mistake after another. Understanding and remembering are a bit hindered right now.

    I have been experiencing some symptoms I tracked to copper defficiency – worriness, hair fall aggravated by sulfur ingestion (eggs), vit C intolerance (brain fog). I read that B3 and B6 can aggravate copper deficiency.

    Right now I am experiencing dry lips, permanent thirst, agitation, racing heart, sleeplessness, breathing shortness and appetite loss, which I now attribute to high histamine caused for interrupting the mB12 and the folate. Taking Mg glycinate helps some , but I think Mg antagonizes thyroid and I get chills. Chamomile tea has been helping. I have “pulsing” stomach (probably the gut lining is damaged) and am taking 2.5g glutamine in the morning.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I have lost about 22 pounds in the last month and am severely underweight.

    On March 14 I upped my folate to 2 quarters of a tablet (400mcg)

    On March 15 by mistake I took 2 halves (800mcg) of folate

    On March 16 I started feeling a tight chest, breathing difficulty - put ginger on my pumpkin soup with meat and felt greatly relieved, so I started taking ginger tea daily (isn’t helping much anymore – makes my mouth even more dry)

    On March 17 I decided not to take folate anymore and started a high potassium diet which included some foods high in folic acid and high in thiols

    On March 19 I went to a yoga session and got cramps in the first 5 minutes and then could not go on. The cramps took over a week to subside (spraying Mg glycinate seemed to help)

    On March 21 I stopped the mB12

    On March 22 I started spraying Mg glycinate on my legs and bought KCl 99% (iodized) to salt my food until March 25

    On March 22 I started drinking almost 1 liter per day of packaged coconut water (I think it contains hidden sulfites) until March 29

    On March 24 I started taking the homeopathy Causticum until March 28

    On March 26 I took 500mg of no flush niacin and 150mg silymarin and then everything got so much worse
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    My plan

    I would be thankful if anyone could give me some advice here – or at least say what NOT to do...

    - 2.5g Glutamine for 10 days and then start probiotics

    - start a low-dose B complex on Wednesday (waiting for my order from the compounding pharmacy)

    - add mB12 (and folate?) back in at low doses a few days after starting the B complex - I see that Caledonia suggests really low doses. Back in January I started mB12 at 500mcg (not low at all I know) and it was going smoothly until I overdosed the folate by mistake. So my plan is to restart it at 250 or 125 mcg (not so easy to cut the tablets this small - unless the compounding pharmacy can make 100 mcg tablets...)

    - I have caps of 300mcg folinic acid, I wonder if I try it for a few days would be too dangerous. At this point if it works, I would go with it rather than with mfolate.

    I think I am an undermethylator and am expirencing methyl donors deficiency. Does anny one confirm that?

    Thanks for reading...

    izzy
     
  4. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    Cause of yor dry mouth, I suggest to ask to be tested re sjogrens if you havent already done so, Sjogrens causes dryness. Not everyone gets dry eyes with it. https://www.sjogrens.org/ . Sjogrens can cause a lot of different problems.

    Looking at those symptoms, dysautonomia eg POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), those symptoms you listed are common symptoms for POTS people to have. I suggest tilt table testing to rule out issues with dysautonomia (low blood volume in this can cause dry lips and it causes thirst).

    Anyway..I think you may need more testing if you havent ruled these things out.
    ..........

    I personally wouldnt think that would be "too dangerous" to trial, 300mcg isnt a high dose. I take 3 times that amount as I need to (I have MTHFR mutation).

    High homocysteine (or ranges in the upper half of normal levels) may indicate you could have MTHFR mutation as this causes it to raise. MTHFR mutation is a very important to know about if you have it as its something which should be treated! and can cause a lot of issues if it isnt. Those with this will need methyl B12 and a form of active folate rather then the standard form (the standard form is no good for ones with it as they cant convert it properly. Anyway.. your post has made me wonder if you MTHFR polymorphism/mutation. I think you certainly should be tested for this. Note I think most labs nowdays can test for this.

    .........

    Your sulphur issues could be coming from a CBS mutation. (I think Ive read somewhere that there is a recommendation that CBS mutation is being treated before MTHFR mutation). But if Im remembering correctly CBS mutation can cause high copper so that wouldnt fit well (I have high copper due to one of my mutations and I think it may of been due to that one).

    Id suggest methylation testing if you think there is an issue around this.. (from what you have said, it sounds like there probably is). 23andME raw data run throu somewhere like genetic genie may help figure out things esp over the two mutations I put above and help bring other clues to your case.
    .....

    Your vitamin C level is concerning as this is so important, if you dont have enough of this, you will have issues fighting infections etc. If I was in your shoes I'd be trying to figure out hard why you have an intollerance there. It could even be due to an issue with the colourings or something else in the vit C pills. Maybe you should try a high quality vitamin C powder form of it which is non coloured, doesnt contain the binders which tablets have etc (a naturopath clinic may know where to get this from, I used to use such a form of vit C).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks for your input, @taniaaust1

    I have tested blood homocysteine recently (during this crisis) and it is middle range.

    I wonder if lack of one of the other B vits would cause dry mouth.

    I guess I will have to navigate thru symptoms right now...

    I am glad that low copper can exclude CBS problems. I really hope I can get everything going with folinic acid instead of methylfolate when I restart methylation next week.

    Izzy
     
  6. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    I dont know if it would completely exclude it, I guess it would depend on just how bad the issue is in which is responsible for your low copper. I just wanted to point out that it would make it less likely by contradiction what is common and normal with the CBS.

    I just looked at your hair test and found it interesting as there is a couple of things there which mirror my own hair test. Your lithium and your Ge being extremely low.. well mine are too, mine are almost no existant levels. Ive been trying to work ot what mutation must be causing this but havent been able to work it out (its probably unknown science right now). Many who have low lithium get mood issues at time so if that is the case for you, I suggest to certainly be trying to supplement it with "lithium orotate" (supplementational form of it).

    I wonder what your white blood cell count is like? (do you have test results for that? and your Neutrophil count?) . What I found was my low lithium level caused me to have borderline low white blood cell count and Neutrophil count. (If you do some research you will see that lithium is sometimes used to boost these). Taking lithium orotate long term doubled my neutrophil level to make it now healthy (and not so it was indicating a chronic infection). Before I took this, I was on the lowest side (just within normal range) for more then 7 years (my white blood cell count had gone down with my illness).

    *Note.. thou the supplementing lithium long term made a difference in making my test results more positive... interestingly my hair test after 18mths on it was still showing up as being extremely deficient in it. So obviously some kind of mutation is affecting my absorption of it or something or maybe my body just uses lots of it due to some issue going on??? Im going to try doubling the amount Im taking.
    ........

    Ive been looking at Ge supplementation but havent tried it yet (it can be apparently dangerous but with my near nil levels I think its worth a try for me to see if it helps me in any way if Im weighing the risk verses possible benefit as my health issues are very severe). Just cause science doesnt really know much about this, doesnt mean that it may not be important in some way.
    ..............

    Your high aluminium level on your hair test, my specialist would tell you to get that down. Mine was within normal range but he still wanted it lower due to my health issues. You probably shouldnt take what I was put on to get mine down, that being selenium as selenium works with copper and lowers it. So i dont know what to suggest to you there but I do really suggest looking into how to lower the aluminium in a way which would be okay for you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Hi @taniaaust1 I don't know what is behind lithium and germanium depletion.

    I have ordered lithium (it is not available in my country) but am afraid to supplement it b/c it antagonizes the thyroid. I am having low temperatures from supplementing magnesium orally for 2 days in a row (trying to reduce the anxiety)... Otherwise I open my Mg caps and dilute in water to spray it in my calves.

    If you have noticed, my iodide is off the chart high. It means lack of synergists (B vits and esp. B12)

    Supplementation can get very tricky...

    izzy
     
  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    If you were bitten by a tick like you mentioned and experienced symptoms shortly after then I would immediately set an appt with an LLMD (Lyme Literate Doctor) and get tested through IgeneX labs to see if you have lyme. No ammount of supplements or methylation correction will fix an underlying infection completely on its own. If possible try and ask for a blood smear test as well. This will test for spirochetes instead of antibodies, The most sick patients especially those with co infections usually test negative for antibody tests at first. This is even through IgeneX and was the case for me. I just had enough cross strand activity to show positive antibodies to prove necessary infection, though the main CDC standard was negative due to not having enough antibodies.

    It can cause all the symptoms you mentioned as well, though you also may want to look into parasitic infection and treat for that, possible tape worms or other hidden pathogens, as well as mold mycotoxins, and yeast. I don't think all of your symptoms can be traced back to nutritional deficiencies alone based on the amount of supplementation you are currently using. FYI also Molybdenum will help clear up sulfurs alongside P5P and Niacin to clear excess methyl groups. You can try using P5P at a dose no higher then 20mg for a few days alongside 20mg of Niacin three times a day, and Molybdenum 300mg spaced through out the day for a few days alongside the P5P and Niacin.

    Is the folic acid you mentioned "Methyl Folate" or regular folic acid, if it is methyl folate what type is it, and what is the brandname? If you are using folic acid then you could have caused paradoxical folate deficiency via. Methyl trapping. Did you have any CBC or CMP blood tests done recently? What did those show if you did? Copper deficiency will cause anemia so that will always show up on a blood test. There is something cold bio unavailable copper/copper toxicity combined. You can read about all of that here.

    http://drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm


    Hope this all helps, message me back if you have any questions!

    Sincerly,

    Todd
     
    Wayne and taniaaust1 like this.
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Hi @Martial
    thanks for your reply. For now I have managed to get a request for an antibody test. I don't think there are any LLMD here where I live. I have mostly heard of veterinarians researching lyme around here. I will keep looking.

    I am also looking into parasitic infections, thanks for the heads up. I am afraid to start taking the prescribed abx right now which is sulfur based. I will take it after a few weeks supplementing all the Bs. Gotta gain some weight first... I can't afford to have even more food intolerances.

    Thank you so much for the detailed protocol to clear up methyl groups. I am confused though... I thought my elevated histamines were due to lack of methylation... from having stopped methylation.

    The vega test was for "folic acid", but I think it considers the usable form for the body... I am considering to trial a low dose of folinic acid before trying methylfolate again tough.

    A few days ago I tested CBC and liver and kidney functions. My RBC count has always been in the lower side of the range. It got better after increasing my meat intake. I think it matches my low copper. I have also tested RBC copper and it is in the lowest of the range. WBC seem normal, although neutrophiles are on the higher side of the range

    Thank you so much for the link and the help!

    izzy
     
  10. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I was posting that in regards to the possibility of histamine issues being related to sulfur/sulfite build ups as you mentioned. what I responded with would specificially help with excess sulfur issues. For regular histamine issues your best bet is a supplement called NeuroProtek, it naturally turns of the H1 and H2 receptors for allergy response and is a great anti inflammatory and natural CNS protector. It is made consistent of various flavanoids naturally found in different fruits and vegetables like broccoli among other things. You can get the same help from using Zantac and an Acid Blocker but these both have their side effects and issues that are not worth it.

    The changes you made to help with blood work look great, I would say just keep doing what you are for that too!

    Hope this helps!

    Todd
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Hi Todd, thank you so much for the tips to deal with the histamines.

    I am having some mucus build up in the lungs right now, but it isn't fluid enough. I hope when I start the Bcomplex I will get some breathing relief.

    I think the histamines are probably related to sulfur/sulfites build up. I don't think it is regular histamine issue. Taking silymarin complicated everything b/c I think my liver released toxins worsening the histamine response. I am getting sudden sweats.

    I see Neuroprotek is made from flavonoids. A couple of days ago I tried to drink hibiscus tea (quercetin) but got the sudden sweats. Chamomile tea helps, but I am trying not to overdo it.

    I forgot to answer before, the methylfolate I took is from a local compounding pharmacy. But it is the real stuff, since I got serious cramps. I am having trouble to find an acceptable form of potassium supplementation, since I can only get it with a prescription, and no one will give me a prescription for that. I found the KCl I used to cook my food disturbs my endocrine system too much.

    izzy
     
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    If this is the case, I wonder if my plan will help... I haven't slept for days now.

    izzy
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Recent blood results
    Homocistein (female range 4.44-13.56) before my accident with folate was 6.78 on Feb 7 is now 9.81 on Mar 21
    Folic acid (3-17.5) 12.6 on Mar 19
    Vitamin B12 872 on Mar 19
     
  14. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    If you were having good supply of methyl folate and methyl b12, as well as Adeno b12 these should all bring homocysteine levels down drastically, in fact usually my concern when talking to others doing a methylation protocol is watching methionine levels and making sure those don't get too high. Higher homocysteine levels ALWAYS points to methylation issues, usually folate deficiency from mutation or using folic acid instead of methyl folate, paradoxical folate deficiency as well, methyl b12 is the best supplement to bring those levels down.

    You sound like you are in some form or another of methyl folate trapping.

    Methylation aside I would really focus on fixing those sulfur issues before fixating on anything else, again molybdenum will help the most here, 300mg daily. alongside some stuff to bind to excess sulfers and diet changes. Usually there are some forms of hidden pathogens or gut dysbiosis to create excess sulfurs in the first place so important to take care of. Be aware that molybdenum at this dose will drive out copper from the system a bit so supplement or find it in food sources to compensate for this.
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thank you so much @Martial
    I am taking 2.5g glutamine in the morning, since the high histamines busted my gut lining. I wonder if I should add 1.5g glycine together with the Mo.
    The recommendation in the Mo box says to take it between lunch and dinner
    My Mo is in drops (35 drops = 11.2 mcg)

    You have been very helpful, thanks

    izzy

    PS The veins in the back of my hands and forearms are really popped out. I read somewhere here this indicates lack of one of the B vits (I don't remember which one)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This is correct. The person who did my vega testing was surprised about the high level of folate needed (the results indicate how much I need)


    I have a presciption to take albendazole (for giardia). It has sulfur and amines. I wonder how will I feel taking that right now.
    I hope I can manage that with food.

    izzy
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  18. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Hi Izzy! As for the glycine I really do not know, I am not an expert on it so I would suggest whatever you may feel would work best for you! Is it helping and are you noticing any positive impact? Is there any issues with it so far? Sometimes just tracking symptoms and feeling for differences in symptoms on something can be very helpful!

    I think you can cover the copper with food, cashews, avacodos, and some other foods have way above the RDV. Sounds like you are doing everything right! I guess the best thing to do is wait and see how you feel! :)

    Todd
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    So I should restart methylation rather than take niacin or niacinamide, right?

    I am still confused if I got into overmethylation or paradoxical folate defficiency.

    I was doing fine before introducing folate, it went well for a week with a low dose folate, but then I messed everything up...

    I am feeling worse today... Chills, weakness, appetite loss, dry throat and mouth, butterflies in stomach, restlessness, tiredness, stuffed nose when lying in bed.

    izzy
     
  20. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland: That sounds like the paradoxical folate deficiency. If everything was fine for a week then went wonky, that's a typical pattern for paradoxical deficiency.

    Also, if you are taking niacin/niacinimide and don't need it, that can cause you problems. To process niacin/niacinimide into the active form of the vitamin that the body can use requires methyl groups. That is, to process niacin/niacinimide the body takes methyl groups away from other physiological processes.

    So if you are already undermethylating, processing niacin/niacinimide takes away methyl groups you really can't spare, thus causing you to be even more undermethylated than you were before taking niacin.

    This is also why people who overmethylate are told to take niacin/niacinimide; it uses up the methyl groups that are causing them to feel bad, thus making them feel better.

    If I were you, at the very least I would stop niacin/niacimide to see if I improved.

    Increasing folate is the solution to paradoxical deficiency, but it's entirely up to you what you want to do. You could feel a bit worse before you get better when you do that. It happened to me. I got through it, but everyone's different. If your symptoms are very severe you are the only one who can decide whether or not you want to try to "push through" or stop. If you've never experienced healing crisis or detox before it can be kind of scary.

    The rate at which you increase folate is also up to you, and also according to the state of your health. Because you are experiencing many problems already, if you do decide to increase, go slowly (like 200mcg or even less per day).

    Also be aware that if you decide to add folate your potassium needs will probably go up for a while. If potassium chloride causes you problems there is another form called potassium gluconate that may be less problematic.

    Good luck!
     

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