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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
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flu shots - have you reconsidered this year?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by November Girl, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Nico likes this.
  2. Shoesies

    Shoesies Senior Member

    No flu shots for me EVER. Nope. I no longer trust mainstream medicine and def NOT big Pharma.
     
    Clodomir likes this.
  3. Nico

    Nico Senior Member

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    Hey Everybody....I am not endorsing getting a flu shot. It was a personal decision I had made based on the news. I think I have gotten 1 other flu shot in my entire life....and I am 45. It's great that everyone has their convictions. It was a decision I made, not lightly. I understood that it could have consequences for me.
     
    SOC, L'engle and madietodd like this.
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Just FYI:

     
    madietodd likes this.
  5. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Provided you survive the naturally-acquired infection.
     
    SOC likes this.
  6. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    No flu shot for me.

    What kills with influenza is dehydration.
     
  7. Furball

    Furball

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    Darn! I was advised to have it & have since had the shot!

    Time will tell I guess.
     
  8. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Nothing is cut and dry about any of this, I can fully understand those that do not trust, or want the shots, There is a risk with any vaccine. It is debateable how much protection one can get from the shots, it depends on many factors, how close the vaccine matches a strain thats circulating, how well your immune system produces anti bodies, which can be affected by many things, age health ect.

    On the one hand we have those getting the shots that may have longer health troubles taking them. On the other we have those that do not take them, who could if they reacted badly to the H1N1 virus, a cytokine storm. potentlially die from something as small as breathing in some ones cough or sneeze, at the local supermarket. the doctors surgary whatever.

    My nephew is a fit and healthy man, who nearly died from H1N1. was on life support. So i can fully understand both sides of this argument. pro and con.

    I am sure there are many on here, who can only see the con, to them there is no pro. While it is true that natural immunity is best. there is not gaurantee that it will protect against different strains year after year. Especially strains that the body hasnt likely seen any component of like H1N1 swine flu. At best studies have shown with a good match between vaccine and strain. there can be 59% protection. Likely more if like me you have had the H1N1 vaccine more than once with the annual flu shot. so a bit above a flip of the coin. Those that do still get it with a good match. can often not be as critically ill, as without vaccine anti bodie protection. I know many who say i dont catch flu, for this or that reason. Mostly likely its just pure good luck. Only in epedemics are the figures so high, that one has a greater chane of catching it. during low seasons many will just get plain lucky and not contract it.

    Relying on catching it to boost your chances for the future, is dangerouse. You may not get a second chance depending how bad it hits you. or how healthy you are.
    I had a bad time with flu years ago. spent days crawling around the floor with 102 F temp a cough that was like ripping my chest out from the inside out. I collasped on day three, and spent 48 hours on the floor with a constant feeling that i was going to faint that would not go away untill my body started beating the virus. it was horrible.

    So while i do not trust the vaccine, its all i have. Make no mistake if you get swine flu bad. its likely going to be a long scary ride.

    I have had bone problems the last couple of years. this years vaccine, seemed to cause a reaction at day 10 ( which is when anti bodie production starts interestingly ) it made my bones in feet legs and shoulders hurt. I had these problems before. but the vaccine made it worse. ( i am suspecting somekind of auto immune reaction )

    So will i take the vaccine agiain. well i certainly dont want to. I may not. But then again i may be to scared not too.
    If i dont get the vaccine and get unlucky. I just know its going to be really really bad. it might put me in hospital. it might kill me. Whats the best safest way to have a longer life. i dont know. i really dont.

    But make no mistake. Flu can kill. in those that are less than fit. And with the H1N1 healthy children have died
    Fit men have been on life support.

    Either way. vaccine or not,. none of this is a sure certainty. Me i stay in as much as i can during winter. I now have a bad flu phobia. thats come from the early ME/CFS infection years, and viruses that i caught in betwwen the ME/CFS years. I hate the winter, i hate viruses. i despise that life A universal vaccine that was 100% effective and safe. would be my dream.
     
  9. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Another advantage to vaccines is that even if they are not 100% effective, they slow the spread of a disease. If those who are healthy and can tolerate the vaccine get vaccinated, a frail person who cannot tolerate the vaccine or the illness may never be exposed. I realize that many of us fall into the latter group, so maybe what we should be doing is encouraging the healthy folk around us to get vaccinated.

    For a hypothetical example, lets say that each person who gets sick exposes 5 other people and each person who is exposed gets sick. I realize that most diseases are not 100% infective, but this sort of assumption makes hypotheticals easier.
    Person one infects 5 people. Those 5 infect 25. Those 25 infect 125. Those 125 infect 625.

    Now let's suppose that everyone is vaccinated with a vaccine that is 60% effective.
    Person one exposes 5 people, of whom 2 get sick. Those 2 exposes 10 people, of whom 4 get sick. Those 4 expose 20 people, of whom 8 get sick. Those 8 expose 40 people, of whom 16 get sick.

    In four rounds of exposure we have gone from 625 sick people to 16 sick people.
     
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  10. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    I have not reconsidered because for me a vaccine has a high risk of inducing a long-term downturn of my ME. This could be less serious than a flu, or potentially similar. Less likely, either could be more serious than a long-term downturn.

    It's not clear whether PWME can necessarily make or keep antibodies to what we're vaccinated for.

    So for me the benefit:risk determination just isn't on the benefit side.
     
    peggy-sue likes this.
  11. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    I know family members of vulnerable people are encouraged to get vaccinated to help protect them. Which is kind of the idea your getting at, though on a larger scale.

    unless the virus is a out and out killer, like bird flu. or the 1918 spanish flu. Mass vaccination would not be offered or indeed accepted. I completely understand the concerns of people with vaccines. I have those concerns too. Infact even more so now with the strange bone reaction i seem to have got recently.

    I dont think the vaccine caused the bone problem. But it did worsen it. suggesting a immune component to it. So yes if there is another way to survive flu for those vulnerable, then thats a good thing.

    Though, i certainly wouldnt rely on vit d and c to save the day. it may help agreed. But is not a sure fire way to avoid all strains of flu i dont belive.. I was taking high doses of vit C and multi vits, and lots of vit rich food. when i caught the flu i mention in my first post ?

    The evidence for this approach is variable at best. Having concerns about vaccines is sensible, its a sensible thing. I have concerns, as mentioned. Though i do wonder if those concerns can spill into out and out agenda, by some factions on the internet.

    verging on parenoia. When theres not a lot more sure fire ways to combat the virus. My point is, its far from ideal agreed, it can be harmfull i have no doubt.

    But i wonder how many anti vacs would refuse the vaccine during a bird flu epedemic. Probably quite a few i would imagine.

    Me i would reluctantly take it. As more than 50% of people who catch bird flu die from it. No matter if your fit and healthy Or not.

    I think its a case of your dammed if you do, and dammed if you dont when it comes to vaccines.

    I hate vaccines. i dont trust them. i belive they are dangerouse in the long term for some people. Its just i hate the flu even more. to me its more dangerouse in the short term, than what the vaccine is.

    A mother of a child killed by the H1N1 virus in the uk, said i never thought about flu much, and urged parents to get there children vaccinated against this particular virus. Its a tough call for sure. In the end we just dont fully know what the best decision is. Get our child vaccinated and risk long term health problems. Dont get them vaccinated, and risk complications, what would be the thoughts if the worst did happen. would we still be saying no vaccines. When we might have saved a life that is preciouse to us

    I struggled with the question do i get my 14 year old daughter Vaccinated against H1N1, i just couldnt forgive myself if she developed CFS symptoms after getting it.

    Then again what if she contracted the virus and died, and i had the chance to get her vaccinated. How would i feel then. Luckily i didnt have to make the choice. My doctor pulled her medical records saw mild asthma, and gave her the shot. do i worry about long term effects you bet.

    Am i glad 6 weeks down the line she has a 60% protection rate compared to non vaccinated children. Again you bet.

    Its a hard one folks i understand both veiws. but these are my veiws. Which i hope are balanced. Either decision could turn out to bite us in the foot i belive.
     
    peggy-sue likes this.
  12. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Fully understand that veiw Willow. We all make the best choice we can, for what we belive is the best decision for us. And clearly you have thought about it logically, and this is the best decision for you. Completely support your reasons given.

    I think my point in this rather long discussion is to come away from the, ALL VACCINES are a menace to human kind type of approach, and explain theres a bit more to it than just that i belive. Those that can only see that side to the debate, well good on them. For others its a bit more complicated. And i hope ive made people see, how complicated the debate really is. with both sides of the debate having merit. not just one.
     
    WillowJ likes this.
  13. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    definitely it's complicated, and it depends not only on the specific individual but also on the specific vaccine (some diseases are potentially worse than others in terms of risks, and some vaccines have better/worse risk of the more serious side effects even in healthy persons)
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  14. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Agreed Willow
     
  15. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I've always had violent reactions to any vaccine, every single one I have had has made me very ill, all my life.
    Quite possibly the reason I have a severe needle phobia.:eek:

    I don't take the shots, even though I'm offered them. I don't know what my normal violent reaction would be with ME, I'm scared to find out, I'm terrified of the needles and even more so of having "something" injected into my body.

    I'd be sitting in the surgery insisting they give me all the traceabilty history of that particular bottle of vaccine being used, right back to the manufacturer and the names of the technicians who were personally involved in producing it;
    I'd be insisting I filled the syringe,
    and then I'd still run away and lock myself in the loo in floods of tears and refuse to come out, just before they try to get the needle into me.

    Which is highly embarrassing behaviour in a 55-year old. :oops:

    I just try to avoid "the public" and keep my fingers crossed..
     
  16. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    I understand that reaction completly. I hate having the jab, i feel nervouse when its time, i hate the side effects, i worry if i will get a bad reaction too.

    But as mentioned i am more afraid of the flu. The effects of flu to me are far far worse. I also hide away in the winter, even though ive had the jab. Winter sucks. roll on summer.
     
  17. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I am more afraid of needles than I am of the 'flu or dying.
     
  18. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Maybe some therapy would help. You know, the kind where they expose you to something under "safe" circumstances until you become adjusted to it. Works for airplanes and spiders, so it might work for needles, too. Never know when you might really need a jab. ;)
     
  19. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I've had a course of hypnotherapy for it. I can now cope with having a blood sample taken, if I'm lying down; and if somebody hangs onto my arm to stop me pulling myself off the needle; and only if I am allowed to burble nonsense non-stop.

    It seems to have allowed me to transfer the adrenalin flood (which normally sends me straight for the safety of the locked loo) into a rapid blethering outpouring of nonsense.
    It can take me weeks to recover from it.

    However, my reaction to having stuff injected into me is not something therapy could deal with.
    It is a normal and rational response.:p
    After all - the biggest killer of all time is malaria. You get that via having alien stuff injected into you.
     
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  20. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    I would get the same reaction being in a room with a person who just sneezed, while a friend whispered in my ear, they told me earlier they have flu. I kid you not, i dont thankfully have a phobia, to needles. But flu, measles whatever. ill run too for sure
     
    peggy-sue likes this.

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