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Flattened spine, Perrin and cfs?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi everyone, Raymond Perrin proposes that cfs is largely due to people having a flattened spine. His website has pictures of this if you are not sure what I mean. I had a look at mine and I was surprised to find that my spine is like this. I wonder if this is a cause of cfs or a result of having to lie down a lot? I was wondering how many other people's spines are this way?
     
  2. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    I read his book which alas is simplistic in its claim that spinal deformity /damage causes E/cfs and his technique can cure it - however spinal injuries like scoliosis ARE common in EDS - but fixing the scoliosos,does not fix the disease alas

    cheers

    ALly
     
  3. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    I took a look at my spine and I think mine is also flattened, though I am not sure. I also have lot of constant tenderness and pain at the thoracic spine area which he says is the area most affected in cfs/me patients. I wonder what would happen if I could somehow clear the tenderness/pain in that area that seems to be so stagnant and/or congested?
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  4. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    tyson oberle
    if you can do some excercises for the thoracic and shoulder area there are some on this site - let me know if you are interested and I'll look them up for you. They do help reduce the swelling and tenderness but not easy when you are fatigued.
     
  5. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    I would be interested
     
  6. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    I think spinal twists and bends contribute to CFS and Fibromyalgia, but that CFS has the viral component causing different symptoms than Fibromyalgia.
     
  7. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    It is my belief there is more to it for ME/CFS. I definitely have flattened cervical, lordotic, and kyphotic curves, and have wondered if it is related. There have been several mentions of flattened cervical curve associated with fibromyalgia, so I had been aware of that for years. The whole spine, though... It looks so odd to me, as I work on people doing massage and see what the back should look like, then look at my own.
     
  8. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I am getting really sway-backed, but I assume it is from lack of exercise. I used to have a horse and my mother could tell how much I had been riding by how swayed my back was. (More sway = less riding)
     
  9. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    tyson oberle

    Hi Tyson, you may want to check out these very effective postural Egoscue "e-cises" (poses, positions). I've gotten a LOT of benefit from doing some of these, especially the "Supine Groin Stretch".

    Egoscue E-Cises
     
  10. John H Wolfe

    John H Wolfe Senior Member

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    I doubt it, although development of the spine does relate to behaviour while we are growing


    Early on in his book Perrin links osteochondritis (an inflammatory cartilage/bone disorder) affecting osteopathic formation) to the high degree of correlation between people who have very active childhoods and people who go on to develop ME/CFS

    I have been to see Dr. Perrin and also had a 2nd and 3rd opinion from other osteopaths on my spinal architecture. All have agreed it is rather ‘ideosyncratic’ shall we say, or “all wrong” as Perrin put it!


    I have a flat thoracic and pronounced curvature of the cervical spine, with a forward head position and a long neck. I believe this has implications for lymphatic drainage yes, but more importantly is a source of neuromuscular tension as per the recent hypothesis of Dr. Rowe

    In my own hypothesis, an extension of the work of such researchers, I am exploring the relationship between such anatomic abnormalities, nerve tension, neurogenic sensitisation, inflammatory neuropeptides and cytokine activity, and sickness behaviour associated with ME/CFS

    It’s all rather theoretical, and probably beyond the pay grade of a layman like me, but for my money it all points to a structural/physiological underpinning in a significant proportion of patients

    Currently experimenting with different postures during day and night to see if I can’t influence the sensitisation I believe is taking place (having experimented rather too much with nerve mobilisation and wound my system up no end!)

    Recommend Perrin technique massage and/or careful/sensitive application of techniques to ease neuromuscular tension e.g. myofascial release and functional technique, as well as other relevant techniques from neurological physiotherapy

    I've done exactly that over the past 18 months, hasn't cured me but has certainly improved the feeling of congestion/inflammation and 'cranky back' as I used to call it (myalgia, particularly upper back)

    You've just reminded me I should really get round to documenting the routine I now do! Must do a youtube clip :)

    Personally I'm not sure the viral element is necessary in the classification of ME/CFS as such (many of us have slow onset, and some, including myself, can retrospectively identify clear signs of slow onset prior to an acute onset event - when the illness 'goes nuclear')

    I definitely get the impression that our symptoms probably wouldn't be nearly as numerous/severe, and the condition nearly as intractable, were it not for the complicating effects of chronic infection however

    I know a number of people who have ME/CFS who are/were riders - so I hate to say it but I rather think the opposite relationship may be true (in young riders)
     
    GracieJ and Wayne like this.
  11. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    interesting - I was an active rider for a long time prior to getting ME. never since.
    has the Perrin technique helped or did you say so and I missed it? if so sorry.........
     
  12. John H Wolfe

    John H Wolfe Senior Member

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    I believe, from admittedly rather limited anecdotal evidence, a significant proportion of people with ME/CFS have been quite active in certain fields in the past e.g. gymnastics, racket sports, riding, rowing, sailing etc ~ all pursuits that involve some measure of postural strain/stretch, some of which contribute to hypermobility

    Aye, I did, don't worry :)

    "hasn't cured me but has certainly improved the feeling of congestion/inflammation and 'cranky back' as I used to call it (myalgia, particularly upper back)"

    More detailed review of my experience here:

    http://johnhwolfe.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/the-perrin-technique-my-experience/
     
  13. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    if it worked as a cure I am sure we would know about it by now as the theory is quite old but I have never heard of anyone claiming a cure

    scoliosisis ( as often seen in EDS for example) is caused by the ligaments/tendons pulling unevenly on either side of the spine and thus the spine does not form in correct alignment as it is pulled to one side or other - correcting this - if possible - is not going to fix a connective tissue disease affecting the whole body

    also back pain esp lower back pain and coathanger neck/back pain is very very common in EDS - again tight muscle fascia, tendons ligamets may be the cause - it is not know why exactly yet

    A
     
  14. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    thanks Wayne,
    I did look into those exercises. I plan on trying them out. What kind of benefits have you gotten?
     

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