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Fixing Leaky Gut Helps ME/CFS, and Sometimes Achieves Full Remission

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Hip, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    I tried Xifaxin about a year and a half ago. I couldn't tolerate it and had to stop after 4 or 5 days. My diahrrea got considerably worse. It was not a fun week. But, it does seem to help alot of people, just not me.
     
  2. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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  3. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Thanks Hip for answering all my questions, appreciated. I suppose though what I am trying to understand is why do people with M.E get overgrowths of the bacterias you listed? Is it because the musocal immune system is faulty? I suppose it's the chicken and egg question, is it due to immune dysfunction that we get overgrowth of bad bacteria which then cause leaky gut which causes so many problems or is the leaky gut the root cause? In the link I profvided above, if I understood it correctly this person only felt better by not only taking rifaxin but also immunoglobulins (IVIG) and I also got the impression they thought that IVIG would have to be ongoing to maintain their improvements....

    Saying all of that, I do take on board that if one can improve the leaky gut, one may well gain clinical improvement, if not cure...
     
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    My feeling is that immunosuppressive viruses may be responsible for the bacterial overgrowth. Lots of viruses have immunosuppressive characteristics. Enteroviruses and HHV-6A for example. When you contract such a virus, then the bacteria start to proliferate. Then the LPS toxins, etc, from these bacteria have a further detrimental effect on antiviral immunity, thus making it harder for the body to clear the viruses. Something like that. CFS seems to comprise dozens of vicious circles like this; CFS seems like a giant ecology of multiple self-supporting vicious circles!

    Actually, that could be a good alternative name for CFS: "vicious circle syndrome", or VCS !
     
    Victronix likes this.
  5. uni

    uni

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    Hey Hip,

    I think you are definately onto something here. Ever since I've been sick, leaky gut and dysbiosis have definately been making my symptoms worse. Actually, now that I think back, I had leaky gut/dysbiosis symptoms probably all the way back in middle school. Its weird though, since I know people who definately have dysbiosis but don't suffer the degree of fatigue or mental impairment or other symptoms like I do. It seems like something else is contributing to the leaky gut.

    I am wondering, what is your diet like while on this protocol? I know its recommended that we cut back on carbs, but I definately don't do well on low-carb diets (ever since I got sick, low carb does not work for me). My brain feels much better when its getting the glucose it needs - the problem is when the bacteria overgrows in upper gut and start to ferment, causing brain fog/anxiety/fatigue, etc. So its a big problem for me - to get enough carbs in my diet while somehow managing the dysbiosis. Yet, maybe something else is causing the body to have dysbiosis - most people eat very poor diets and don't have as severe reactions as us. Its weird too - I can sometimes get symptoms right after eating - the food should not have reached the intestines yet, but I feel toxic/bad. It doesn't happen at every meal, but quite often, and its different feeling from a food sensitivity.
     
  6. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thank you.
     
  7. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    THanks Hip for your reply. I suppose then the question ask myself is why are people with M.e reactivating these viruses? If my understanding is correct and I amy have understood it wrongly, a lot of people get these viruses but they remain latent as they are kept in check by the immune system. It does come back to the whole immune dysfunction....

    In the link I provided in this thread the person seemed to imply that treating the gut with abx etc will only help for a bit...unless you can get IVIG... Makes me wonder is there any point trying to access abx etc....
     
  8. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Things I know for sure can cause leaky gut:

    a. bacterial overgrowth - from a researcher named Fassani (I think that's the spelling, it's the guy that studies zonulin)
    b. gluten
    c. enteroviruses

    Motility issues and pancreatic output issues could cause a. I also learned enteroviruses cause pancreatic output issues. There are several things that could be going on here resulting in a nasty situation.

     
    Victronix likes this.
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Nice link, globalpilot.

    Two herbs recommended in the leaky gut protocol, namely: Haritaki (Terminalia chebula) and Amla/Indian gooseberry (Emblica officinalis; synonym: Phyllanthus emblica) both have antiviral action against coxsackievirus B, so this may be one of the reasons these herbs work for treating leaky gut. And these herbs may be doubly useful for people with enterovirus-associated CFS.

    Refs: PMID19699238; PMID19374435; Terminalia chebula can protect Vero cells from CVB3 and CVB5
     
  10. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Nice work on the Chinese herbs

    Any idea where to get these herbs ? Can I just walk into a chinese herbalist and get them ?


     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    An Indian/Asain grocery store may have them in powder form (which is the cheapest way to buy). The Indian name is Haritaki. The Chinese name is He Zi.

    I would just buy online: Haritaki OR Terminalia-chebula OR He-Zi powder

    You may be better of buying triphala powder, as this herbal formula has Haritaki and Amla combined, plus one other herb. Triphala is well known in Indian stores.
     
  12. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    I didn't read those studies you posted in detail, just the abstract. But was wondering if you noticed a dose ? Dose is very important I think.

    Normally I would order online from iherb but I'm leaving for 6 weeks monday so was looking for a local source.

     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I only read the abstracts also.
    I got the doses from various other leaky gut regimens I found online, and from herbalist sources. These doses I settled on are these:


    Leaky Gut Protocol :
    Saccharomyces boulardii (Jarrow) x 2 capsules
    Grape seed extract 200 mg
    Zinc carnosine 1 capsule (27.5 mg)
    Vitamin E 400 iu
    N-acetylglucosamine 500 mg
    Triphala 1500 mg
    Glutamine powder 1 heaped tsp (6 grams)
    Slippery elm bark 1000 mg
    Zinc 20 mg

    But you can experiment with your own best dose.
     
  14. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    Many of us can't take the the yeast, I would suggest trying it alone first if you go that route.
     
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, some people also have problems with glutamine also, so a safer and cheaper version of this leaky gut protocol might be:

    Grape seed extract 200 mg
    Vitamin E 400 iu
    Triphala 1500 mg
    Slippery elm bark 1000 mg

    Taken twice daily, at least to start with.

    I cannot take oral zinc, it gives me stomach ache, so just crush down the zinc tablet into fine powder, and apply to my skin, where I assume it is absorbed slowly.
     
  16. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I just want to say thanks for this thread.

    I'm dealing with candida right now, but once that's under control, I'm going to share all this information with my naturopath, and see if we can do this next.
     
  17. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    I think the Saccharomyces is worth a try since what it does in the GI system is a good thing eliminating some other forms of bad yeast, and therefore supporting the bacterial balance. Some people able to tolerate it, have found it helpful. I would just try it alone first.

    I do that with everything involving multiple different supplements/drugs....I add one at a time so that in the event of a bad (or good) reaction I can see which it was. I rarely purchase combo supplements, unless I've already tried every one of it's ingredients.
     
  18. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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  19. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Is it a waste of time taking the leaky gut supplements if you feel you've got bacterial overgrowth? Do you need to get rid of that first?

    Thanks
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Not all all; you'd especially want to fix a leaky gut in cases of bacterial overgrowth. This is because a (Gram negative) bacterial overgrowth creates a lot of LPS toxin. LPS toxin is one of the most inflammatory substances known, and what's more, LPS can pass through a leaky gut, and get into the body as a whole, which is likely going to be a bad thing.
     

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