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First hint of 'life after death'

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Cheesus, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I'd say generally no to your question regarding similarity to Zen meditation. Remember, these people come from all ages and walks of life, and they're as likely to be a mechanic as a banker, neither of which are the most likely to practice meditation. They do, however, tend as a group to gravitate to more spiritual practices such as meditation, often leaving traditional religions in wake of their newfound outlook. That is not to say all leave their former religion.
     
    Hip likes this.
  2. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @Lou

    Is this your personal observation or do you have a source for this?

    Do you think if we just meet these people we will change our minds? I may be assuming here and you know what'said about that.

    There are two authors who have written about their NDE.. One is convinced it was proof of an afterlife and the other thinks it was a neurologIcal. I will come back and cite the books but it may be a while as I've done a lot of research on this as well as other things so I need to wade through my computer history.

    Wether we believe a neurological explanation, a spiritual or even that god works her miracles through our neurological circuits, these are all beliefs which are valid for each person. Beliefs are beliefs and sometimes we just have to realize that some things can't be proven either way.

    Barb
     
  3. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Hi barb,

    It's my personal observation and boo koo of sources --well many at the least--; in the last forty years a minimum of dozens of NDE'ers and researchers have written books and been interviewed on TV and in other media, and it's just not that difficult to find the information. I'd still say Professor Kenneth Ring and his several books are the best initial source. He has interviewed hundreds of people who've had a NDE, and published results of his extended study of these people and the after effects of the NDE.

    The more scornful reaction here to the NDE seems to have dissipated and I intend giving some thought this weekend to reconsider telling more about my personal association with that NDEer mentioned earlier who became a close friend. He is without doubt one of the most interesting persons I've ever met. I hope you will find him that way as well.

    Don't know what happened with the quote function for this post, sorry.
    Moderator Note: I edited the quote--is this what you intended?
    Yes, thank you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
  4. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    From what I've read, researchers have tried to work out if there is a certain match between personality and whether a positive (as opposed to negative) experience occured, but they have not been able to distinguish any such correlation.
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Might there be correlation between whether your NDE was a nice or unpleasant experience, and whether you are good or bad person, in terms of you treatment of others? Any info on this, @Lou ?

    Many religions of course say that your behavior in this life will affect your status in the afterlife (or in the in-between life, if it is a reincarnation-based religion like Buddhism).


    In this respect, I find the reported experiences with the African psychedelic herb Iboga fascinating. Iboga causes you to intensely relive many of the earlier episodes in your life, including all your early childhood experiences. When you relive these experiences, you feel very strongly all the emotions present during these life episodes in your memory (the Iboga experience in general is a highly emotional one); however, the interesting thing is that you feel the emotions from the perspective of the other people taking part in your life episodes. So if you were horrible to people in your life, and cause a lot of suffering, then when taking Iboga, you will now experience yourself the very suffering you caused in others. So it's as if Iboga makes you relive your life, but with an empathetic perception of the minds of others. So if others are suffering, you will feel the suffering though empathy.

    Needless to say, Iboga provides a very powerful education in morals, and in treating other people kindly. Iboga is used as part of the Bwiti spiritual practices in Africa.

    Like NDEs, Iboga has lots of positive long-term effects. For one thing, Iboga has potent anti-addictive properties: one session of Iboga can eradicate an alcohol or heroin addition. (So clearly Iboga has a normalizing affect on neuronal receptors, because drug addiction is caused by factors such as decreases in receptor densities and increases in the dopamine transporter). Not only that, but after the Iboga session, people take a much more positive and responsible approach to their life, so in this sense, the after effects of an Iboga experience are similar to those of a NDE.
     
  6. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    It goes without saying I have no universal truths to add but in regard to what you asked I'll make a couple of comments.

    When I asked my friend who'd had a NDE a similar question he told me, "There is evil, but good is so (his emphasis) much stronger. This was a long time ago and I'm almost sure he was referring to an afterlife but cannot remember absolutely at the moment.

    Some, if not all, of the core experiencers, those who've 'gone farther', had deeper experiences, talk about the ability of the separated (from the body) consciousness to manifest differing 'physical' scenes. So it would seem that one's culture, and presumably one's mindset regarding good and evil, might influence what that person experiences in the initial stage of the NDE.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
  7. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Hi @Hip
    I would see that as an advantage. I've never been very spiritual, let alone mystical, but from my own experience I found the intellect and the mind to be more of a barrier. In fact its' not our effort that get us there, it's God's move. The word "passive" or contemplation comes to mind.
    Once I knew God, I realised that my mind was absolutely unimportant as the spirit that was sleeping somewhere within me kind of came to life and quite suddenly. And I had never been aware of that dimension within me for a second in all my entire life. Only through that spirit, we all have somewhere in the "background", we can commune with God but it seems to me that only God can "switch" that connection on, that is if we ask him.

    That was certainly me till a few years ago.

    I'm very much an apprentice in this area and I don't have inspired words of wisdom but it seems to me that the more you open and give the truth of your heart, whether you feel angry, frustrated, annoyed etc the more likely you are to get a response.

    Apart from that, in my case (with hindsight) what was key was surrendering. I just surrendered all and feeling rather angry I kind of said "if you're really there and care in the slightest, of which I doubt, then you take over and run my entire life, as I'm just sick of being sick and of all the rest". Quite simply it all started from there.

    The most amazing thing about God in my mind is the absolute respect for our wills.
    God will not interfere in our lives, with our plans etc. he will just let us get on as we like, unless we invite him in without half measures, that's what I experienced.

    It changes everything. You don't need anything any longer (food, drink, sex, money, "spiritual" experiences etc.) to fill that emptiness most of us carry inside.
    It's hard to explain it in words but the best I can think of as an illustration is to think of your most important and loving relationship, say your spouse, your children or a very dear friend.
    Think of the person on earth who loves you the most and the one you love the most. How does that mean and feel to you?
    Well, when God reveals himself to you, any relationship, any kind of love you've ever felt becomes sort irrelevant in comparison, so intense is the feeling of his love which you can feel both spiritually and physically.
    My own sense of it all is that if we were to see God with our own eyes, our earthly bodies and minds would break down, "evaporate" instantly, we would not be able to withstand the intensity of his love; the best I can think of would be the intensity/heat of a supernova-like explosion.

    It actually isn't, it may be a consequence of it as you would in a human relationship (e.g. being caring, not cheating etc.) but that comes as a result. I found God gives you everything you need to be with him if that's what you want but not everything may come straight away.

    I'm not sure I get what a Godhead is but in my own experience God is really a person, an infinite spiritual being of infinite goodness whom you can only experience through a connection which is hard to describe or define.
    Best wishes.
     
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  8. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Thread goes silent, I go away for few days, I look back and there's, enough reading for about a week.:eek: Trust the scientists to get picky about, EEGs showing no activity after Cardiac arrest.. Ive skimped a little on some of the links, but there appears to be quite a few links mentioning names and studies that show this might not be so

    I will have try and find evidence if this is the case, the only thing that will convince a scientist, is science right.

    thought I read earlier forgive me if I am wrong, that electrical activity in the brain ceases after a much shorter period
    Than what Hip mentioned from Barb ?

    I only say this because it doesn't seem to add up to what others are saying, and mentioning studies,

    Of course they haven't cited the studies here. fools. So they must be telling porkys.

    I would be surprised if that turned out to be true. I suspect studies may exist. But of course those studies will have to be un arguable, because we know how much they will be scrutinized once presented.


    ----- here is what our old friends again have said ----

    After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain
    http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=84

    ------ And from the other link posted on here---------

    NEUROPHYSIOLOGY DURING CARDIAC ARREST
    Through many studies in both human and animal models, cerebral function has
    been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest, with sudden loss
    of consciousness and of all body reflexes, but also with the abolition of brain-stem
    activity with the loss of the gag reflex and of the corneal reflex, and fixed and dilated
    pupils are clinical findings in those patients (Parnia and Fenwick, 2002). And also
    the function of the respiratory center, located close to the brainstem, fails, resulting
    in apnoea. Complete cessation of cerebral circulation is found in induced cardiac
    arrest due to ventricular fibrillation (VF) during threshold testing at implantation
    of internal defibrillators. This complete cerebral ischemic model can be used to
    study the result of anoxia of the brain. The middle cerebral artery blood flow, Vmca,
    which is a reliable trend monitor of the cerebral blood flow, decreases to 0 cm/sec
    immediately after the induction of VF (Gopalan et al., 1999). Electrical activity in
    both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be
    absent after a very short period of time. Monitoring of the electrical activity of the
    cortex (EEG) has shown that the first ischemic changes in the EEG are detected an
    average of 6.5 seconds from the onset of circulatory arrest, and with prolongation
    of the cerebral ischemia always progression to isoelectricity occurs within 10 to
    20 (mean 15) seconds (De Vries et al., 1998; Clute and Levy, 1990; Losasso
    et al., 1992; Parnia and Fenwick, 2002). After defibrillation the Vmca, measured by
    transcranial Doppler technique, returns rapidly within 1–5 seconds after a cardiac
    arrest of short duration (Gopalan et al., 1999). However, in the case of a prolonged
    cardiac arrest of more than 37 seconds, normal EEG activity may not return for
    many minutes to hours after cardiac function has been restored, depending on the
    duration of the cardiac arrest, despite maintenance of adequate blood pressure in
    the recovery phase (Smith et al., 1990). Additionally, EEG recovery sometimes
    underestimates the metabolic recovery of the brain, and cerebral oxygen uptake
    may be depressed for a considerable time after restoration of circulation (De Vries
    et al., 1998).---------

    Its a bit over my head. But I think it seems to suggest, That for the most part
    EEGs would show little on no activity after only a short period of Cardiac arrest.
    So much to read on here. it will take me a while.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2014
  9. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @free at last

    I did cite a url with information which says that brain activity is longer than what you have cited. I will let you find my citation as I am not going to go through 10 pages to find it.

    As for me, I am not going to post more comments as at this point this thread is not about me/cfs. I have also removed myself from getting notifications for new posts.

    I don't think anyone is going to change other's minds for either point of view and IMHO, this is what it's become.

    For thers still interested, carry on.:)

    Barb
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  10. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Well that's completely fair. But of course we do have to be careful not to believe just one study, over another. And this can go both ways. But of course the sensible thing to do with no bias. Is to look at all the studies and take the common view, that most experts of ALL the studies seem to agree on. Studies are more important to me,
    than preconceived ideas, about laughing at such notions with the old fellows at the club. Thats not science. its a view point. Yes. But the negative folk want science to back up any claims. So why shouldn't others want the same rigorous
    Expectation. Not just view points from one citation that may, or may not not entirely agree with other studies.
    That's not science its bias. But hey if you find the discussion unimportant. Hopefully we all wont be in for a big surprise, come the day if you get my drift. Me I haven't a clue. But willing to believe its possible. The mere fact we are even alive and talking, is strange beyond belief if you ask me. Chances are, we probably shouldn't be here right now. because the infinity of time suggests overwhelmingly that we just shouldn't be talking in the NOW
    But HERE WE ARE TC Barb if see you on the other side. I am going to say ha. Where's a study for this then
    We all get to find out eventually or, not as the case could be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  11. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    From what I've read, no (but I'm not up to date on all this). I think that was the obvious question and it frustratingly hasn't turned out to be true. Nancy Bush reports mentions “What we think people deserve has nothing to do with whether they have a glorious experience or a terrible one.”:
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/08/is-hell-real-people-who-went-there-say-yes.html

    I've seen videos on youtube by guys who admit they were "bad" during their life, had a bad NDE, and lived the rest of their lives as good people. Apparently about 1 in 5 NDE's are bad (according to the article above) but I've also heard 5% quoted.
    It would be fascinating to get to the bottom of this question. Perhaps some people who have bad NDE's and appear to be good in life actually aren't? Or perhaps they did something bad they don't like to admit.

    When I first read about NDE's they seemed to be incredibly positive, and I lost a fear of death. But when I read about the negative accounts....well there's nothing more scary than hell....
     
  12. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I do the same Hip. How can this "God" be good if there is so much suffering?
    I can only come up with 2 answers for this. The first is just that there is good and evil, and what is creating this pain in our lives is the evil. But then what's the point of a universe filled with war between good and evil?
    The 2nd answer I like more. None of this life makes sense. Why there is so much inequality and difference in human experience. It appears as though there is no point to existence, to life on Earth, or any form of consciousness anywhere in the universe. The wrongs that have been done on Earth are so wrong they could not possibly be made right once we leave Earth and our human forms (assuming that's what happens). So, doesn't the universe in all conceivable manifestations seems utterly pointless?

    An yet....how could it be that the laws of physics are so equisitely perfect as to give rise to such incredible diversity of life on Earth and yet simultaneously be without a point? The only way I can reconcile that in my mind is to assume that there is a point, but we're too inferior (at this point in our "evolution" or spirtual existence) to understand what it could be. That's something that our endlessly questioning human minds have to put up with for the time being.

    Sometimes I smile when I think of what the ufologist Bob Dean said in an interview...paraphrasing: "Humans who have lived a life on Earth get a special certificate due to the rough experience of it all".

    Better be a bloody good certificate :p
     
  13. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Cardiac surgeon tells NDE story:
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, there is no precise definition of good and evil, so someone's apparently good actions might in fact evil, and vice versa.
     
  15. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    That is quite an amazing story! Especially his closing remark. Thanks for posting x
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  16. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Totally without an experience of God.
    All evil on this planet is carried out by human beings who can freely choose how to live their life and choose between evil and good.
    This is an example http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...o-help-karina-hansen.33032/page-4#post-520645
     
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Sounds like you are trying to pin the blame on humans when the culprit appears to be this supposed God. If you study infectious diseases for example, and the incredible mental and physical suffering that such diseases can inflict, it becomes apparent you can be dealt a blow of horrendous suffering just because you inadvertently happened to contract a microbe. A young child for example can pick up bacteria meningitis, leading to the loss of all their limbs, or contract poliovirus, and become paralyzed. If there was a creator of this world, then he is responsible for a lot of wanton suffering.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
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  18. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    @Hip
    All evil I can think of is invariably carried out by rapists, murderers, religious fanatics, mad dictators, greedy corporates etc.
    I know there is an evil influence operating in the spiritual world who opposes God and is at work 24/7 in this world but ultimately we can say no to it, although it may be quite difficult at times.
    The God I know is connected to each one of us and experiences, and I mean this literally, the same pain and suffering we do right now right here. The suffering I feel or you feel, God feels it too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    And I sometimes get the impression he enjoys it.

    Or perhaps that he allows and tolerates the existence of suffering, because for some reason, suffering is a necessary agent, or a necessary evil, in the scheme of things.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
  20. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Maybe not, Hip. Could be the wanton suffering is still the result of our human actions. I cannot remember the figures but there's a definite increase in belief of reincarnation for someone who's had an NDE.

    There could be bills to pay (even for a child) if a previous life was filled with wanton cruelty.
     

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