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First experience with L-Carnitine Fumarate

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by SwanRonson, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    I took LCF (Dr's Best) for the first time yesterday and had a pretty wild time of it. I tend to stay pretty sparse with vitamins and supplements in general, especially on the days trying something new. So, yesterday this is what I took:

    8am: Vitamin C - 1000mg, D3 - 5000 IU, L-Carnitine Fumarate - 75mg
    Breakfast (8am): 4 slices of bacon, 3 eggs, kale smoothie (kale, pineapple, coconut water, strawberries)

    I'm guesstimating on the 75mg number. I cracked open a capsule and poured just a little bit out into a fresh veggie cap. I'm guessing it was somewhere south of 100mg and north of 50mg. Not much.

    Starting around 9am I felt the LCF kicking in. It was a strange sort of wired feeling, but more mental than physical. It got more and more intense. By 2pm I was seriously glad that I hadn't taken more than I did because it was really unpleasant. My skin began to itch mildly and I was pretty agitated. This went on until about 6pm, and then things started to calm down. By 8pm I actually felt really, really good. My skin still itched (actually it still itches today a little), but my physical energy was good (very little fatigue) and the brain fog was much improved.

    I had a hard time falling to sleep initially, but after I did I slept the whole night, which is not usual for me. I normally wake up at 3am to 4am and have trouble falling back to sleep.

    So, all in all it was a mixed bag. I hated the way it made me feel at first but loved how I felt afterwards.
     
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  2. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    Thanks for the report.

    years ago, before CFS, I tried acetyl-L-carnitine as a "smart drug." Man, I hated that s$#%. It made me anxious, manic, paranoid, and full of energy. I also recall it wearing off and thinking it wasn't so bad in retrospect. Still, the impression it left was one of those supplements that make me think twice before swallowing. I hope LCF is a little different.
     
  3. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    Well, I can see where micro-titration is the way to go for sure. I was thinking maybe just getting a little on my pinky finger and rubbing it on my gums. Sounds like a little goes a long way, for both of us at least.
     
  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I LOVE LCF! Not meaning to shout but it so happens that every letter in that statement needed caps for one reason or other. ;)

    Seriously, I really do love the stuff. It is definitely a foundation of my recovery and I will take it for the rest of my life. I fully credit it with much of the big gains I've experienced in exercise overall stamina and esp. exercise tolerance. It's supposed to be beneficial for repairing and growing mitochondria. Apparently my mitochondria were in very bad shape before I started all this. I didn't even know what PEM was before hitting PR, and now I realize I've been experiencing it to some degree for most if not all of my life. But no more.

    That said, I had a pretty dicey time with LCF for the first 8 or so months I used it. Many if not most people around here do have a hard time with it. I had to back off it for days at a time, then re-try, etc. It made me wired, anxious, jittery, gave me insomnia, etc. Definitely don't take it after about 1p in the afternoon. I worked my way up from about 1/4 cap to 1000mg/day these days, and I still won't take it after 1p. It may not affect me that way now, but why take the risk.

    Incidentally, I had to stay at 250mg/day for about six months. But I kept experimenting, and when I finally passed the 500mg (full cap of Dr's Best) /day mark, I was able to ramp up to 1000mg/day within a couple weeks. It was like a breakthrough.

    There is not any reported therapeutic benefit (physically or mentally) to taking more than 1000mg/day. That jives with my personal experience...I tried up to 2000mg/day with no discernible additional benefit. So now I just do 2 caps (1000mg) per day.

    IMO LCF is very, very beneficial. If you're able to ride out the sides to get to the other end of it, you'll probably see benefits, too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
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  5. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    @whodathunkit Thanks so much for that feedback. Two questions:

    1. Do you take it every day?
    2. How much did you settle with initially to find a good balance between benefits and side-effects?
     
  6. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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  7. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    I actually followed Fred's tip and took L-Carnitine in liquid form, diluting 1 drop in 30 drops of water and taking one drop of that per day and titrating up by increasing about 20% each day, staying at a dose until stable, then increasing again.

    Currently take about 1250mg a day.
     
  8. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I used to be the World's Most Nervous Guy. Then I started taking some of the right (methylation) supplements and my anxiety has calmed greatly. I don't sweat small things in a way that causes me to fall apart, get acid reflux, catabolize my muscle and collegen tissue anymore. It feels wonderful :) I don't want this feeling to end.

    The thought of 'riding the waves' of a supplement notorious for excitotoxicity is not one bit appealing, but the idea of not having PEM (major problem) is very appealing.

    I should probbaly give it a try rather than speculate how it'll be for me.

    @SJB944 how's it working for you now? did you have rough startup?
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    What specific supp (or combo) do you think reversed it for you? Or at what point of methylation?
     
  10. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    @whodathunkit

    By initially I meant at the very beginning. Or are you saying you went straight to 250 on day one and stayed there for 6 months? Sorry. Just trying to understand.
     
  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Sherpa, you might also take a look at the "Resistant Starch Challenge" thread and try fixing your gut a little, if you think LCF might not be beneficial for you right now. The RS and fixing my gut with other pre- and probiotics is what finally kicked the ass of PEM for me. Or what has kicked it so far (I never discount the possibility that things could go south again).

    @Freddd's protocol got me about 2/3 of the way past PEM, but while it fixed the problem with extreme soreness after exercise and some stamina issues, I still wasn't quite right. Fixing my gut finally pushed me into full "normal people" exercise tolerance. Now I feel like a real girl who can actually do stuff. I can exercise in the morning and still have energy enough to get dressed up and go out to dinner in the evening. It's kind of amazing. :thumbsup: Possibly even more amazing when you consider I'm over 50 and now have more tolerance to exercise than I did 20 years ago.

    For example, yesterday a.m. I did my full abdominal routine (a 15 minute Pilates video) then went to the gym and did a full 20 minute session of HIIT on the bike, then stopped in the weight area on the way out and did a few sets on my arms with weights.

    For my entire adolescent and adult life, after an hour of exercise like that, I would have needed to go lay down and take a 2 hour nap. Maybe I wouldn't have been able to nap due to life circumstances, but I would have desperately wanted to. Even during time periods when I was taking care of myself I'd still get that "wanna nap" feeling after exercise, although it would be easier to push past it.

    But in the last decade or so, I wouldn't have been able to do that amount of exercise at one time, period. Some days gently walking my dogs twice per day was about as much as I could do. I have tried HIIT so many times over the last 5-10 or so years since we've been hearing about it, and it crashed me *every single time*. Incredibly sore all over my body afterwards, plus the "adrenal crash" feeling. Then a week or two to get over the acute soreness, then a couple months to recover from the adrenal crash. Increasingly tight muscles throughout. Doing the ab routine just made me want to nap right there in the floor laying on my Pilates mat with the video going. :lol: I had no idea this was called "PEM"...but there you go. Maybe my experience was not as severe as some people's, but it still wasn't normal. I just thought it was.

    Anyway, today I did both the ab routine again plus another 20 minute video with some other exercises. The astounding thing is that after what I did yesterday, tradition has it that I shouldn't have been able to do what I did today. But I'm fine. Not terribly sore, not crashy, etc.

    This "extreme" tolerance to exercise is still pretty new, as is my experiment with the gut stuff in the RS thread. Yesterday was the first day I've ever been able complete a full 20 minutes of HIIT (usually had to quit after 4-5 cycles instead of a whole 6). So I fully credit the gut stuff with pushing me past the exercise tolerance plateau and into what feels more or less like what I assume is normalcy. Difficult to say since I've never been normal, but at least this is close.

    Point being, fixing your gut might help you with exercise tolerance, too. Increased ET seems to be a reported side effect for some people (not just me). I definitely think LCF is an essential supplement and should not be left out, but possibly you could get some progress under your belt before trying it. I don't know. Just thinking out loud. I don't think I would have made as much progress with my gut in such a short time if I hadn't had the methylation solidly under my belt first, but it could also be a chicken/egg thing. Maybe fixing some gut issues will smooth the road for the Deadlock Quartet for some people, even thought it worked vice-versa for me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
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  12. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    @Sherpa It's given me great benefit, I'd say it has had a significant impact on reducing, if not completely removing PEM -- I can now walk decent distances at pace, when at one point I couldn't walk 10 meters.

    Yes, it is a rough start, but nothing unbearable for me -- the benefit of going slow and very very low. Main symptoms apart from general wiredness, was increase in muscle pains, which were largely sorted by potassium.

    Other thing I noticed, was a need to use my muscles, in my case started walking -- started with slow shuffle and slowly built up -- building up exercise, was not possible for me for about 15 years. If I raised my heart rate even slightly it would give me massive PEM.

    I'd been taking b12 for about 4 years, methylfolate and adb12 about 2 years before trying l-carnitine.
     
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  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @SwanRonson: I started with about 1/4 capsule. Then progressed to half cap (250mg) and had to hold it there for at least six months. During that six months I had to stop LCF altogether for a few days (maybe even a week at one point) and then re-start.

    I also just remembered that I became such an ardent admirer of LCF late in the 250mg stage after I forgot to take it for a protracted period of time. I started feeling pretty crappy so mentally reviewed what could possibly be causing the downturn. Then it dawned on me that I hadn't taken my LCF for some longish while (at least a couple weeks). So I started back up with it and Zoom! Never looked back. I think that was what led me to try bumping up to 500mg (sucessfully) and then quickly after that to 1000mg.

    I wish I'd kept a strict journal. But I think that's how it happened.
     
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  14. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    Taking zinc and B6... after decades of starved deficiency, was like a revelation. I became a much calmer, happier, more easy going person. The out-of-control anxious thought loops that contributed to catabolism slowed down. Adding B12 -- another severe deficiency - was anotherbig leap. The latest breakthrough is finally being able to tolerate methylfolate. The 4 or 5 hours that a dose of methylfolate "works" before paradoxical insufficency symptoms kick in is like paradise - a glutathione-soaked Hawaiian vacation in my brain. Then the More Methylfolate Mafia or the Greedy Potassium Monster barges in, demands more, and ruins the daydream.

    @whodathunkit That's awesome! On my recent visit to Jamaica I had a breakfast served with 4 boiled green bananas. It gave be a ton of energy - from potassium and resistant starch, maybe. I believe there is something to it worth exploring! I have already started eating cooked and cooled green bananas with each meal. I'm already a believer in RS - I just need to read up!


    Oh man... I have such mixed feelings about Freddd's protocol. For sure, there is a ton of very "true" information. That is Freddd is "right on" about a number of supplements and our reactions to them cannot be denied. But the nature of the biochemical beast he describes is so complicated, so paradoxical, so hit or miss. I run into trouble when these supplements make me crave potassium and I feed the craving - and then I overdo it and feel like total s#$@. My goal to avoid this problem is to hugely increase potassium in diet, rather than drinking K / MTHFRade all day... so that supplementing K can be done on a low dose, as needed basis.

    Why does it have to be so freaking complicated? Why can't I just be like one of those 5 star reviews on Amazon or Iherb that says "My doctor sez I have 2 bad MTHFRs. I have been taking 1 capsule a day of MethylWiz Plus and my life has completely turned around. I am now a professional break dancer. Buy this product!" ;)

    No donut holes, no methyl traps, no titration, no symptoms than can send you to ER... just taking a supplement at a dose and getting the same reaction each time. Ya know, like most other supplements.

    I guess our genetic destiny is to explore the puzzling frontiers of nutrient therapy. And we should be grateful to have options to explore - far more than 10 or 15 years back.

    Cool, I am working hard to fix my gut and clean it over parasites. I am just now starting to introduce probiotics again after killing some bad guys. I will check out RS, get my diet improved to support lots of cell growth and electrolyte balance from real foods as much as possible, learn how to supplement potassium better / wiser / more sparingly and better prepared than before, and become a real guy who can do stuff.

    Thanks for the inspiration!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Recipe please! Hopefully cooking them reduces latex toxicity... I had to give up on green bananas due to latex allergy (mast cell activation). Must wear gloves to peel green bananas :ninja:
     
  16. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I would suggest washing the bananas with hot, soapy water first to get rid of fertilizer or pesticides. Then prepare as shown in this video, boil for 18 to 20 minutes. Easily peels. Keeps for a couple days in the fridge. The banans can be eaten cooled, or sliced and stir fried.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  18. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    L carnatine Fumarate used to make me have the weirdest bouts of rage and other emotions when combined with the methylation protocol. Now I don't feel much at all and feel pretty much the same whether or not I take it, which is much better by the way lol.
     
  19. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    Have any of you tried taking Alpha Lipoic Acid with LCF? There seems to be some interesting synergy between the two, and I wonder if it could curb some of the side effects of LCF. Take these quotes for example:
    Source: http://examine.com/supplements/Alpha-Lipoic Acid/
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
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  20. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Just started Alpha Lipoic Acid 600 mg in combination with Acetyl L-Carnitine 1,000 mg, knowing very little about this. I feel a little wired, irritable and tired but this could be for other reasons too.

    Am I missing the boat here with this form of Carnitine? Why are you guys taking the Fumarate form instead of the acetyl-l form? I haven't read all of Fredd's material as I can't deal with the complexity in combination with my lack of memory and stamina. Also I am not interested in a very complicated treatment protocol due to the oppression of constant attendance to it and control. I am always looking, and willing to try, something simple.

    If anyone can help me out with my question about the form of carnitine, I would be obliged!
     

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